I'm still wondering what should be done with these supposedly corrupt scientists and greedy CEOs, but there's been a lot of ranting and not much else. If you want them imprisoned, how would the process work? (And remember the constitution isn't going to be changed).Somehow I doubt you care at all about others considering everything else you've posted. In the end the most important thing is to stop the activity that is so destructive, finding justice for this kind of criminal behavior is secondary and if the tobacco lobby case is any indication the people most responsible for the vast destruction already done will never see the inside of a courtroom either criminal or civil. There's no question that climate change is in full gear now, the hotter and hotter summers are burning up vast areas of the planet, there is still an over 1,000,000 acres blaze a couple hundred miles to the north of here and 10 miles away there is a 5,000 acre fire. One of many that will burn in this province into the fall, and across this region far down into the US. And this is happening in various forms all over the planet, in large part because of how successful the fossil fuel lobby has been in delaying any action. When this was first brought to prominence almost 30 years ago there was a very good chance of preventing some of the worst impact of human forced climate change. Now we are already dealing with disasters that are only going to get worse. This idea that we are going to be able to deal with these negative impacts with no problem is not supported by the evidence, when some of them hit like record breaking hurricanes and wildfires of immense size we get out of the way or die. That is exactly what is going to happen to more and more people as these things become more frequent and other impacts kick in that will threaten water and food security for more and more people all the time. And still deniers claim there is no cause for alarm.... then flee for the hills abandoning everyone else as we just saw with Rush Limbaugh taking the insane action of telling people to not worry about a hurricane that was about to cover Florida from coast to coast with extreme winds, intense rainfall, tornadoes on the east of the state and a storm surge that could reach almost 20 feet in some areas. That will kill anyone not prepared as the governor of Florida has clearly stated. And this from a politician that forbid government employees in the state from using the term "climate change." We have already been screwed, the people responsible do deserve some form of justice but far more important is taking what measures we can now to save as much as possible. This truly is an emergency even if the frauds who have been claiming it isn't happening for decades have fooled themselves into believing their own lies. There's no way we should keep basing official policy on these deadly lies but that is exactly what the US is going to get until the denier trump is out of the White House, Tillerson is out of State and Pruitt no longer heads the EPA. We just have to look at the fact that these people are in the position of formulating and implementing policy to deal with climate change to see how effective the industry funded fraud has been. What trump is doing is exactly the same thing that Limbaugh did before fleeing for his life... only on a much larger scale. Having trump and all the frauds working for him is a disaster in its own right.
Incidentally, if anyone was following this,
here’s the latest follow up
September 10, 2017 Phil Klotzbach's response to Citizenschallenge Examined - The Map vs. Territory ProblemPhil Klotzbach gave me his permission to share this email and I thank him. I haven’t changed any of his words, I simply follow along and share my responses as I try fleshing out this Map vs. Territory Problem I'm trying to explain. By that I mean the attitude that unless you can statistically prove it, it doesn't exist and should be dismissed, even though the physics dictates it must exist and had better be taken seriously. There’s also the seepage issue, a sort of self-censorship where certain information is being withheld while other information is given inordinate weight - following the contrarian script rather than focusing on conveying the physical reality. _____________________________________________________________From: Phil Klotzbach Date: Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 6:51 AM Subject: Re: fyi, just posted "Surely you’re joking Dr. Klotzbach, no hurricane global warming connection" To: citizenschallenge @ gmail Dr. Klotzbach writes: Apologies for a delay, but it's been a very hectic past few days.No apology needed, considering your lead author of the Colorado State University Department of Atmospheric Science’s seasonal hurricane forecast, I imagine you’re probably running on four hours of sleep these past few weeks. I was surprised to receive any response, let alone such a thoughtful one. I don’t mind admitting I’m honored and thank you for your time and effort. Explaining your position will allow me to explain mine, which I believe is compatible with the need for vigorous science in all it’s maddening details minutia and uncertainties. ______________________________________________________________________________Dr. Klotzbach: In answer to your questions, I have spent over 15 years working with historical hurricane data, primarily for the Atlantic but over the last several years with global data, so I do not make statements like I did on NPR and many other news outlets without having spent much time understanding the nuances of the technology going into the analyses.I acknowledge your expertise, in fact both Drs. Mann and Tobis made a point of telling me your professional reputation among experts is solid. Me? I’m a layperson and my hobby for the past 45 years has been learning about Earth sciences. Evolution and our planet’s global heat and moisture distribution engine have been of particular fascination to me. My position is that while our actual living breathing climate engine is infinitely complex, it follows fundamental and well understood laws - which I believe are too often left behind in favor of obsessing over trying to explain uncertainties that in the end are more irrelevant than not, and only serve to sooth people into complacent disconnect from the changes happening underfoot. This is what my Map vs. Territory Problem is all about, allow me to explain. Read more » http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/klotzbach-response-to-citizenschallenge.html
I'm still wondering what should be done with these supposedly corrupt scientists and greedy CEOs, but there's been a lot of ranting and not much else. If you want them imprisoned, how would the process work? (And remember the constitution isn't going to be changed).We already supposedly have slander and liable laws. Deliberately misrepresenting facts and repeatedly ignoring corrections to those mistakes, is something that can be demonstrated based on the public record. It’s really simple - a societal return to the expectation of honesty from our experts and leader, even if none of us is perfect. Sure beats the conviction that malicious lies are a free speech right.
There’s no question that hurricane formation is a complex process.
A number of years ago I spent a lot of time educating myself on hurricane formation as part of an attempt to understand climate change better.
Some things that I still recall.
- The atmospheric depressions that eventually turn into hurricanes can start as far away as Ethiopia in thunder storm systems there that then move westward across the Sahara eventually reaching the Atlantic.
- If winds are strong enough blowing off of the Sahara dust carried over the Atlantic can cool the surface water impeding hurricane formation.
- In strong El Nino years the typical trade winds that usually blow to the west at that latitude can reverse and blow to the east. This can also impede the formation of hurricanes as it prevents the high altitude buildup of clouds that begin to pull warm, moist ocean surface air to high altitudes where the water vapour condenses and releases the heat that begins to accelerate the spiral winds that eventually turn a tropical depression into a hurricane when sustained wind speeds reach a certain point. The winds basically lop the top off the tropical storm before it can grow to hurricane strength.
The most important thing that I came to understand is that a key component of hurricane formation and eventual strength is the warm surface water that in turn creates the warm and much more humid air that is the “fuel” source of hurricanes.
I think saying that global warming doesn’t contribute to stronger hurricanes is like saying all that gas that you accidentally spilled in your backyard isn’t going to contribute to the brush fire that is heading your way. Warm ocean surface water is fuel to hurricanes, if a hurricane passes over water that is warmer than usual there is a very good chance it will become a more intense storm because there is more energy in the form of water vapour that will be pulled to high altitude where it condenses and releases 54 calories per gram.
I think the fact that we have just seen the most powerful hurricane ever recorded in the Atlantic at a time when all indications are that climate is in fact warming does give a strong argument for a link. Academics may debate this for a long time, but given the context and the fact that this is exactly what was predicted by climate scientists 30 years ago convinces me. Enough with picking the fly shit from the pepper, let’s call all these things what they are and stop being so cautious about what’s happening.
Catastrophe is here already and based on the incredibly well supported science this is just going to increase.
Let’s not pretend the summer of Harvey, Katia, Irma, Jose and who knows what follows is a one off we won’t have to worry about in the future. This is the new normal, and it sucks.
I also think most people don’t understand the incredible amount of energy released by a hurricane.
A typical hurricane will release 600 trillion watts, that is equivalent to 200 times the worldwide electrical generation capacity.
All that energy comes from the water vapour that the tropical storm pulls from near the ocean surface and raises in updrafts to high altitude where it condenses and releases 540(sorry, my memory failed me, I was off by an order of magnitude, water vapour releases 540 calories on condensation) calories per gram.
If water and air temperatures are warmer there will be more evaporation and the saturation point of the air increases which means that it can carry more water vapour.
Do the math.
- A tropical storm relies on latent heat in the form of water vapour to power itself up to higher speeds. It does this by sucking surface air up into high altitude where the water vapour condenses and releases 540 calories per gram.
- Warmer surface water and air temperatures mean there is probably more water vapour present in the air near the ocean surface.
- As the tropical depression crosses over this warmer water with higher levels of water vapour it gains more energy in the form of condensing water which produces heat which takes the cyclical motion of the tropical depression - due to coriolis effect - and accelerates it.
- As the tropical storm begins to spin faster it also pulls more surface air up to high altitude where it increases the spin rate even more pulling even more humid air to high altitude where the water vapour condenses. It is a feedback loop, if there is more energy available it will strengthen this feedback even more.
Consider how much water vapour must be condensed to provide 600 trillion watts of energy. A hurricane is a very efficient way to take latent heat that is distributed over a very large volume and concentrate it into a relatively small but incredibly powerful storm system.
Please explain to me how it would be possible given all this that if you provided even more energy in the form of more water vapour that this wouldn’t result in exactly what we are seeing across the Caribbean and US south.
Abnormally powerful storm systems traveling over abnormally warm ocean surfaces.
One fortunate aspect - if anything about a hurricane can be called fortunate - of a hurricane is how it releases the energy it contains.
It may sound implausible, but most of the energy contained in a hurricane is released in ways that don’t increase the strength of the winds. It goes into the hurricanes “rising motions” or is expelled into the upper layers of the atmosphere.
People on the Earth’s surface only feel 1/2 of a percent of all the energy eventually released by a hurricane.
Fortunately for those in the path of hurricanes, most of this energy goes into generating the storm's rising motions or gets expelled as a kind of "cold exhaust" in the upper layers of the atmosphere, some eight or ten miles up. Only a tiny portion of that total energy goes into cooking up the ferocious winds. "A hurricane is a pretty inefficient heat engine," Landsea says. "Only about a half percent of all the energy that's being released is actually captured by the hurricane to warm the air locally, lower the pressure, and spin the winds out." Yet as people in, say, Florida know all too well, that half percent still packs a wallop. Like 1,500,000,000,000 watts in the average hurricane—or fully half of the global electrical output.
I'm still wondering what should be done with these supposedly corrupt scientists and greedy CEOs, but there's been a lot of ranting and not much else. If you want them imprisoned, how would the process work? (And remember the constitution isn't going to be changed).We already supposedly have slander and liable laws. Deliberately misrepresenting facts and repeatedly ignoring corrections to those mistakes, is something that can be demonstrated based on the public record. It’s really simple - a societal return to the expectation of honesty from our experts and leader, even if none of us is perfect. Sure beats the conviction that malicious lies are a free speech right.I think you're getting your legal definitions mixed up because misrepresenting scientific facts isn't slander or libel. Slander and libel meansharmful defamation of character]. Misrepresenting facts isn't a crime at all unless it happens in court.
I'm still wondering what should be done with these supposedly corrupt scientists and greedy CEOs, but there's been a lot of ranting and not much else. If you want them imprisoned, how would the process work? (And remember the constitution isn't going to be changed).We already supposedly have slander and liable laws. Deliberately misrepresenting facts and repeatedly ignoring corrections to those mistakes, is something that can be demonstrated based on the public record. It’s really simple - a societal return to the expectation of honesty from our experts and leader, even if none of us is perfect. Sure beats the conviction that malicious lies are a free speech right.I think you're getting your legal definitions mixed up because misrepresenting scientific facts isn't slander or libel. Slander and libel meansharmful defamation of character]. Misrepresenting facts isn't a crime at all unless it happens in court. Yes and no. When scientists spend an huge effort to put together a study, and that study get's malicious misrepresented, it is not only the knowledge that is being abused but the integrity of the scientists efforts. Go up to some newly unveiled artwork and destroy it - bet there are laws about that. Why is intellectual so different? I do appreciate that the malicious right wing has very methodically and deliberately made dishonesty a cornerstone of their public outreach efforts. Hell they proudly proclaim it their free speech right. Sure our legal system isn't set up to deal such underhanded bullshit - but that is a big problem that ought to get rectified. Perhaps just as important would be that scientists stop allowing themselves being played for patsies so easily
September 15, 2017 #A) Examining Investors Business Daily’s malicious libel against Dr. Mann (1-3) http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-investorscom-fraud-libel-mann.html September 17, 2017 #B) Examining Investors Business Daily’s malicious libel against Dr. Mann (4-9) http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/b-investorscom-fraud-libel-mann.html September 17, 2017 #C) Examining Investors Business Daily’s malicious libel against Dr. Mann (10-14) http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/c-investorscom-fraud-libel-mann.html September 18, 2017 #D) Examining Investors Business Daily’s malicious libel against Dr. Mann (15-27) http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/d-investorscom-fraud-libel-mann.html September 19, 2017 #E) Examining Investors Business Daily’s malicious libel against Dr. Mann (28-36 and fini) http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/09/e-investorscom-fraud-libel-mann.html
Hurricanes are powered by heat they pull up from the ocean surface, warmer oceans upper layers means the potential for much more powerful hurricanes. Water vapour when it condenses releases 54 calories per gram, as all that water vapour that is pulled from the ocean surface by growing tropical storms rises into the atmosphere condenses and releases an incredible amount of heat which is then converted into wind velocity as the hurricane spirals up. It's why a hurricane starts dying the moment it crosses over land. It's completely dishonest to claim that global warming with much warmer ocean temperatures are not linked to much stronger hurricanes. What is already happening is that once in 100 year hurricanes are going to become once in 25 years, then once in 10, etc... exactly what the science has been saying for decades. The people being paid by the fossil fuel industry must keep lying or their paychecks will dry up as those companies most responsible for this growing disaster are sued out of existence. The damage already done by fossil fuels is in the hundreds of billions of dollars... at least. And we're all picking up the bill, not the Koch brothers, not Exxon-Mobil, not Shell, not Chevron, not Standard, not Southern, Peabody, Western Fuels or any of these criminal organizations who's products in the end will be far more deadly than all the cocaine, heroin, meth, etc... ever produced.It isn't just the fossil fuel industry by a long shot. It's all the dyed-in-the-wool, hard-headed capitalists who don't want to have to cut back on their capitalistic excesses who are the real problem. They are afraid that if they accept that human caused global warming is causing problems with the weather and otherwise, that they will no longer have untrammelled capitalism to profit from. They don't want to be restricted in any way, so they refuse to agree that climate change is human caused and that anything can be done about it. I hear from these capitalist types and their position never changes. Here's an example of what one human-caused climate change denier says. "There have been category 3, 4 and 5 hurricanes before. You remember telling us when the global warming warnings were first launched that we could expect 17 major hurricanes that year. That didn't happen and has not happened any year since. They can not accurately predict that sort of stuff no matter what they say. But we can expect it from "them" whenever we see several hurricanes hit. What is their explanation for being so wrong for the past 10 years? "For all we know we may not see another major hurricane again for several more years." "Them" are liberals and climate scientists.
I'm still wondering what should be done with these supposedly corrupt scientists and greedy CEOs, but there's been a lot of ranting and not much else. If you want them imprisoned, how would the process work? (And remember the constitution isn't going to be changed).We already supposedly have slander and liable laws. Deliberately misrepresenting facts and repeatedly ignoring corrections to those mistakes, is something that can be demonstrated based on the public record. It’s really simple - a societal return to the expectation of honesty from our experts and leader, even if none of us is perfect. Sure beats the conviction that malicious lies are a free speech right.I think you're getting your legal definitions mixed up because misrepresenting scientific facts isn't slander or libel. Slander and libel meansharmful defamation of character]. Misrepresenting facts isn't a crime at all unless it happens in court. Yes and no. When scientists spend an huge effort to put together a study, and that study get's malicious misrepresented, it is not only the knowledge that is being abused but the integrity of the scientists efforts. Go up to some newly unveiled artwork and destroy it - bet there are laws about that. Why is intellectual so different?Facts can't be destroyed or abused in any meaningful sense, they still exist for those who are interested. As for scientific integrity - that is too subjective to quantify legally. It can be quantified in research to some extent, and there's already a system monitoring that.
I do appreciate that the malicious right wing has very methodically and deliberately made dishonesty a cornerstone of their public outreach efforts. Hell they proudly proclaim it their free speech right. Sure our legal system isn't set up to deal such underhanded bullshit - but that is a big problem that ought to get rectified.Its not a big problem. You simply want those you don't like silenced.
Facts can't be destroyed or abused in any meaningful sense, they still exist for those who are interested. As for scientific integrity - that is too subjective to quantify legally. It can be quantified in research to some extent, and there's already a system monitoring that.What is too subjective of deliberately misrepresenting, misstating written studies and reports? As for ethics - what about making the most outlandish charges against professionals in positions of responsibility - claims and charges with no serious evidence to support them - purely intended to destroy careers. Why are you proud to call that your free speech right? What is it about the true blue right wing character - Truth about the physical world has taken a make-believe faith based aspect, you can ignore it at will, if it interferes with dogmatic interests, its okay to ignore all incoming information and corrections. Innuendo, insults, misrepresenting your opponents words, so that you can fabricate a fictitious, but winning story line, all that is part of normal operating procedure. I get the feeling you aren't bothered in the least by someone like Trump or Bannon, doesn't disturb your morals or peace of mind in the least? It's all part and parcel of having to win regardless of anything but one's own immediate self interest in winning. See in my world honestly still means something and our planet's geophysics are quite straight forward. It's real easy to determine truth and lie, but it requires a level playing field and that has been destroyed in our modern era. For example debating someone like MikeYohe is fundamentally useless because he refuses to absorb and process new information. And he's simply parroting what he's been taught by the masters of deception. Who would that be, well there's a long documented historyI do appreciate that the malicious right wing has very methodically and deliberately made dishonesty a cornerstone of their public outreach efforts. Hell they proudly proclaim it their free speech right. Sure our legal system isn't set up to deal such underhanded bullshit - but that is a big problem that ought to get rectified.Its not a big problem. You simply want those you don't like silenced.
http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org http://exxonknew.org https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/But you can be smug, you guys won and all of us will get to reap the 'rewards'. :down:
Facts can't be destroyed or abused in any meaningful sense, they still exist for those who are interested. As for scientific integrity - that is too subjective to quantify legally. It can be quantified in research to some extent, and there's already a system monitoring that.What is too subjective of deliberately misrepresenting, misstating written studies and reports?That's not the issue, you said the integrity of scientist's work was under attack by misrepresenting facts, but how do we define and measure the integrity? Should the government, for example, be allowed to ban scientists who are deemed not motivated by the right factors? The only "integrity" that matters in science is accuracy, and the peer-review system monitors that already. Instituting any other type of "scientific integrity" standard would inevitably lead to the politicization of science - which we are dangerously close to as it is.I do appreciate that the malicious right wing has very methodically and deliberately made dishonesty a cornerstone of their public outreach efforts. Hell they proudly proclaim it their free speech right. Sure our legal system isn't set up to deal such underhanded bullshit - but that is a big problem that ought to get rectified.Its not a big problem. You simply want those you don't like silenced.
As for ethics - what about making the most outlandish charges against professionals in positions of responsibility - claims and charges with no serious evidence to support them - purely intended to destroy careers. Why are you proud to call that your free speech right?LOLWTF, no careers have been destroyed by "outlandish charges", nor could that even happen. Scientist's careers are safe - unless their work is proven corrupt by their peers.
What is it about the true blue right wing character - Truth about the physical world has taken a make-believe faith based aspect, you can ignore it at will, if it interferes with dogmatic interests, its okay to ignore all incoming information and corrections. Innuendo, insults, misrepresenting your opponents words, so that you can fabricate a fictitious, but winning story line, all that is part of normal operating procedure. I get the feeling you aren't bothered in the least by someone like Trump or Bannon, doesn't disturb your morals or peace of mind in the least? It's all part and parcel of having to win regardless of anything but one's own immediate self interest in winning. See in my world honestly still means something and our planet's geophysics are quite straight forward. It's real easy to determine truth and lie, but it requires a level playing field and that has been destroyed in our modern era. For example debating someone like MikeYohe is fundamentally useless because he refuses to absorb and process new information. And he's simply parroting what he's been taught by the masters of deception. Who would that be, well there's a long documented historyI started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense.http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org http://exxonknew.org https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/But you can be smug, you guys won and all of us will get to reap the 'rewards'. :down:
I started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense.Any emotion is overemotional to someone with shallow effect.
I started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense.Any emotion is overemotional to someone with shallow effect."Affect"
I started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense.Any emotion is overemotional to someone with shallow effect."Affect" Exactly... thanks for showing what I mean by your treating everything as a game... Psychopaths do not care what they are, they don't care about anything except the thrill they get in screwing with other people's mind, bodies and spirits...
Stop caring about your’s any everybody else’s lives people, it’s making Beltane uncomfortable.
We just need to accept that we’re all mere pawns to the greatness that is people who were born without a conscience and the ability to feel anything but pleasure at the misfortune of others.
You know, republicans and other “right” wingers.
Isn’t that the message that we’re getting from him and his fuhrer trump, that no one but them matters at all…
Think I’m just going to leave block on permanently, I’ve seen more than enough ugliness in my life… and there is nothing uglier than the moral and emotional vacuum that lies at the center of some people.
As for ethics - what about making the most outlandish charges against professionals in positions of responsibility - claims and charges with no serious evidence to support them - purely intended to destroy careers. Why are you proud to call that your free speech right?LOLWTF, no careers have been destroyed by "outlandish charges", nor could that even happen. Scientist's careers are safe - unless their work is proven corrupt by their peers.
What is it about the true blue right wing character - Truth about the physical world has taken a make-believe faith based aspect, you can ignore it at will, if it interferes with dogmatic interests, its okay to ignore all incoming information and corrections. Innuendo, insults, misrepresenting your opponents words, so that you can fabricate a fictitious, but winning story line, all that is part of normal operating procedure. I get the feeling you aren't bothered in the least by someone like Trump or Bannon, doesn't disturb your morals or peace of mind in the least? It's all part and parcel of having to win regardless of anything but one's own immediate self interest in winning. See in my world honestly still means something and our planet's geophysics are quite straight forward. It's real easy to determine truth and lie, but it requires a level playing field and that has been destroyed in our modern era. For example debating someone like MikeYohe is fundamentally useless because he refuses to absorb and process new information. And he's simply parroting what he's been taught by the masters of deception. Who would that be, well there's a long documented historyI started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense. :lol: :lol: Nonsense you're just rationalizing your inability to write anything serious of substance. It's not me emotionalizing, I'm not the one that needs fantasy to make my world go round.http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org http://exxonknew.org https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/But you can be smug, you guys won and all of us will get to reap the 'rewards'. :down:
I started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense.Any emotion is overemotional to someone with shallow effect."Affect" Exactly... thanks for showing what I mean by your treating everything as a game... Psychopaths do not care what they are, they don't care about anything except the thrill they get in screwing with other people's mind, bodies and spirits...Maybe you should take a break from the internet.
As for ethics - what about making the most outlandish charges against professionals in positions of responsibility - claims and charges with no serious evidence to support them - purely intended to destroy careers. Why are you proud to call that your free speech right?LOLWTF, no careers have been destroyed by "outlandish charges", nor could that even happen. Scientist's careers are safe - unless their work is proven corrupt by their peers.
What is it about the true blue right wing character - Truth about the physical world has taken a make-believe faith based aspect, you can ignore it at will, if it interferes with dogmatic interests, its okay to ignore all incoming information and corrections. Innuendo, insults, misrepresenting your opponents words, so that you can fabricate a fictitious, but winning story line, all that is part of normal operating procedure. I get the feeling you aren't bothered in the least by someone like Trump or Bannon, doesn't disturb your morals or peace of mind in the least? It's all part and parcel of having to win regardless of anything but one's own immediate self interest in winning. See in my world honestly still means something and our planet's geophysics are quite straight forward. It's real easy to determine truth and lie, but it requires a level playing field and that has been destroyed in our modern era. For example debating someone like MikeYohe is fundamentally useless because he refuses to absorb and process new information. And he's simply parroting what he's been taught by the masters of deception. Who would that be, well there's a long documented historyI started writing a more detailed post, but there's no point trying to respond to overemotional nonsense. :lol: :lol: Nonsense you're just rationalizing your inability to write anything serious of substance. It's not me emotionalizing, I'm not the one that needs fantasy to make my world go round. The only fantasizing happening here is your belief that scientist's careers are being ruined by misrepresented facts - which you stupidly think is "slander". Weed is bad.http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org http://exxonknew.org https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/But you can be smug, you guys won and all of us will get to reap the 'rewards'. :down: