Couldn’t help myself. I brought up the image with Microsoft Image Composer and turned up the Red and sure enough the laces looked white and the shoe looked pink. The hand looked more natural. However, the rest of the background was way overdriven Red.
Of course the question is, what do the people that originally saw pink and white see now?
Klinko: “Sorry, but nobody can describe in Human Language what their Conscious Sensory Experiences Feel Like. If someone was Red Color Blind there would be no Words you could say that would describe or Explain what your Experience of Redness was like. If someone had never felt Pain you would not be able to describe your Experience of Pain to them. These Conscious Experiences exist only in the Mind. The Mind can Experience these things without any attachment to the Words of a language.”
TimB: I have a pain in my neck. It is an intermittent and intense, sharp pain that can happen and be momentarily excruciating if I turn my head just slightly. It feels as tho one of the muscles in my neck spasms, and persists until I can turn my neck slightly to find a point where the pain subsides. Oh my, did I just do the impossible and describe a conscious experience of mine?
Yes, there are some awareness behaviors that do not require words of language. But if you have no word for the “experience”, is it just a blur? If you can’t describe the “experience” or even name it, how do you retain it in consciousness? That we do not seem to have much memory ability prior to 4 years of age, seems quite significant to me, since we also do not have relatively complex verbal behavior before age 4. What I am suggesting is that our complex verbal behavior abilities help us bring information to conscious awareness and to sustain our conscious awareness of given stimulus situations.
On the shoe color, I see teal and gray also. If it is not a scam, some of us, should see the pink and white version without manipulating the pic.
I’m thinking of some of the worst pain I’ve experienced, but I can only describe it in terms of other pains. I felt cold of being exposed or the flush of warmth from blood rushing to the wound, or pressure, or it was a like a spike in my neck. There is pain that just causes you to automatically recoil, but even that requires other experiences to relate it after the fact.
When I had a large jagged kidney stone in my kidney, years ago, the pain in my right lower back was poundingly intense. The pain lead to my writhing on the floor and vomiting. (That suggests the intensity.) It hurt very much.
That is a description of the pain. Steven says that it is not possible to verbally express this. But there you go. Pain is natural, not mysterious. Perceiving colors is natural, not mysterious. Tasting salt is natural, not something weirdly beyond our understanding.
TimB: I have a pain in my neck. It is an intermittent and intense, sharp pain that can happen and be momentarily excruciating if I turn my head just slightly. It feels as tho one of the muscles in my neck spasms, and persists until I can turn my neck slightly to find a point where the pain subsides. Oh my, did I just do the impossible and describe a conscious experience of mine?
You can Try to describe the Pain but you will never be able to Actually describe the Pain.
TimB: Yes, there are some awareness behaviors that do not require words of language. But if you have no word for the “experience”, is it just a blur? If you can’t describe the “experience” or even name it, how do you retain it in consciousness? That we do not seem to have much memory ability prior to 4 years of age, seems quite significant to me, since we also do not have relatively complex verbal behavior before age 4. What I am suggesting is that our complex verbal behavior abilities help us bring information to conscious awareness and to sustain our conscious awareness of given stimulus situations.
The Experience itself is stored in Consciousness. You don’t need any Words for Redness to think about Redness.
TimB: On the shoe color, I see teal and gray also. If it is not a scam, some of us, should see the pink and white version without manipulating the pic.
My wife said she saw this on TV recently and some of the people did see the pink and white. My wife also sees teal and gray. Unless the TV show was scamming I think there really are people that see the pink and white.
TimB: When I had a large jagged kidney stone in my kidney, years ago, the pain in my right lower back was poundingly intense. The pain lead to my writhing on the floor and vomiting. (That suggests the intensity.) It hurt very much.
That is a description of the pain. Steven says that it is not possible to verbally express this. But there you go. Pain is natural, not mysterious. Perceiving colors is natural, not mysterious. Tasting salt is natural, not something weirdly beyond our understanding.
When I said that nobody can Describe an Experience like Pain or Redness it was implicit that the Description would not be able to convey the Pain or Redness to someone else especially someone who might not have ever felt Pain or seen Red. You can only Try to describe Pain or Redness but in the end Words cannot express those things. Yes the Salty Taste is probably not weirdly beyond our understanding. But we sure don’t understand it Yet.
Lausten: I’m thinking of some of the worst pain I’ve experienced, but I can only describe it in terms of other pains. I felt cold of being exposed or the flush of warmth from blood rushing to the wound, or pressure, or it was a like a spike in my neck. There is pain that just causes you to automatically recoil, but even that requires other experiences to relate it after the fact.
After the fact analysis is good, but I’m interested in the Phenomenon of the Experience of Pain or Redness at the instant it is happening. What are those Phenomena? They happen in the Conscious Mind. They obviously exist as some sort of Phenomena in the Universe but are unexplainable by Science. They are in a Category of Phenomena that is not part of the Scientific database of Categories of Phenomena.
Just to be clear: When I say unexplainable by Science I just mean that it’s unexplainable by Science at this time. I don’t mean that I think it can’t be explained someday.
What are those Phenomena?Yeah. You've repeated the question a few times.
Thanks. Since I fished for that complement, I will release it back into the wild, so that it might grow and reproduce.You're the best T.
I cannot remotely impress my patterns of brainwaves into your brain, so that you feel some pain I feel, or so that you experience redness as I do, so that you know what “salty” tastes like to me.
This is basically your prime evidence that consciousness is inexplicable.
I don’t follow.
Where you are going wrong, perhaps, is presuming that the neurological correlates that occur conjointly to our conscious experience ARE NOT the same thing as that conscious experience of a perception.
TimB: I cannot remotely impress my patterns of brainwaves into your brain, so that you feel some pain I feel, or so that you experience redness as I do, so that you know what “salty” tastes like to me.
This is basically your prime evidence that consciousness is inexplicable.
I don’t follow.
That’s not an explanation that Consciousness is inexplicable, but it is how things are. I don’t think Consciousness cannot be Explained, but it sure has not been Explained yet.
TimB: Where you are going wrong, perhaps, is presuming that the neurological correlates that occur conjointly to our conscious experience ARE NOT the same thing as that conscious experience of a perception.
That could all be true but nobody can show how that is true. There is a huge Explanatory Gap with that assumption of Oneness. It’s easy to say that Neural Activity and Conscious Activity are the same thing but it is just a hope and a belief.
Actually it is just a hypothesis. One that fits. One that neuro-technologies may provide increasing evidence for, or (conceivably) against, in the coming years.
And I am glad you clarified that you didn’t originally mean “inexplicable” but rather “unexplained for now”.
TimB: Actually it is just a hypothesis. One that fits. One that neuro-technologies may provide increasing evidence for, or (conceivably) against, in the coming years. And I am glad you clarified that you didn’t originally mean “inexplicable” but rather “unexplained for now”.
Because we are so ignorant at this time in history, I think anything is possible when it comes to Consciousness. Since Redness exists in the Manifest Universe there must be some kind of Explanation for it. That’s what I want to know. If it can Logically be shown to be Neural Activity then that’s fine. For the people that care the Quest continues.
Cool beans, Mr. Klinko.
This is where I’d hopped this thread was going, but it stalled out. They talk about Chalmers and much more.
