Do miracles disprove science?

Does it really matter to you what people call it, or would you prefer that you didn’t get healed without treatment? Would suffering through chemo and radiation reinforce your confidence in science?
Yes it matters what you call it because words have meaning. If someone says they prayed and a miracle happened, they are usually saying something about some cause and effect that isn't scientific. If there is a way to cure people without medicine, we should all know about it and try to use that. The problem with praying is no one has ever been able to show how it works, how to do it right, and how to get the results we all want.

So, you’re next question doesn’t follow.

ibil said; You are diagnosed with cancer; two months later after no treatment you are cancer free. Best science say this was not expected.
Citation of spontaneous cancer remission, please. Remission after medical cancer treatment is "expected". That why you go to the hospital instead of going to a prayer session by a priest. What you are spouting is dangerous. Some people might believe you and choose prayer over treatment, and die. Do you want that on your conscience?
Those who prayed for you and really did expect you to be healed won’t call it a miracle because it wasn’t unexpected.
Oh, but that is "not even wrong"! If something good happens, especially after prayer, that's when the claim "It's a miracle" goes out to the world and the people who did the praying take the credit for god answering their prayers. What about the patient? If he prayed dilingently for good health, why did he get sick in the first place? That would be abnormal if the he expected to stay healthy, no?

What about the prayers which are not answered as per expectation, is that abmormal or an adverse miracle or is that normal? God has never lost a football game, even if your team is in last place. IMO, when you win on a wing and a prayer instead of playing good football, that’s a miracle! But only because the other team was even worse, not because you prayed for it. The other team prayed also. What about their expectations, heh?

As with all attempted logic in matters of science, spirituality is of absolutely no use, except perhaps for some emotional support. When I’m sick I’d rather have someone bring me flowers than offer prayer. The flowers I can smell and use for aroma therapy.

p.s. “Not even wrong” is a phrase often used to describe pseudoscience or bad science.[1] It describes an argument or explanation that purports to be scientific but is based on faulty reasoning or speculative premises that can neither be proven correct nor falsified and thus cannot be discussed in a rigorous and scientific sense.[1] For a meaningful discussion on whether a certain statement is true or false, the statement must satisfy the criterion of falsifiability, the inherent possibility for the statement to be tested and found false. In this sense, the phrase “not even wrong” is synonymous to “nonfalsifiable”. Not even wrong - Wikipedia

 

@elphidium55

What is a miracle, to you? If this is to be a scientific inquiry, based on the drift of the conversation here, the proper thing to do is define exactly what is under examination.

Below is what I lifted off the internet. You may have a different take.

A miracle is a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.

@ibelieveinlogic

Would suffering through chemo and radiation reinforce your confidence in science?
I would rather not suffer and reinforce my belief in miracles.
ibelieveinlogic said; Would suffering through chemo and radiation reinforce your confidence in science
If it cures you, you bet it does.

Let’s be very clear, prayer does not cure cancer. Cancer is not a psychosomatic disease.

A miracle is a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.
And where does that imply the intervention by a god? Improbable does not mean impossible. And if it is possible in nature, given enough time and incidence, it will happen even if it is improbable. It is called; "a large number of rare events distribution". It s a science developed by the NSA!

Earth itself has performed some 3 trillion, quadrillion, quaderillion, quadrillion chemical reactions during the past 4 billion years. A lot of these chemical interactions were improbable, but happened. Abiogenesis is but one example of an improbable event that was possible and eventually did happen given the enormous chemical abundance and time spans of a planet like earth. None of the “miracles” in history is the result of an intentional act by a supernatural designer. That probability actually borders on the absolute impossible.

@write4u

Why does the Earth revolve to give us night and day? What causes it to spin on its axis like that - not too fast and not too slow? It’s quite extraordinary and brings welcome consequences of sunlit days and glorious night time slumber. It’s a miracle.

Tide goes in, tide goes out

Tide goes in, tide goes out
There you go! And it's not caused by the moon. Give up knowledge and recover the magic of innocence.
@sree "Give up knowledge and recover the magic of innocence."
The magic of innocence is absolutely awesome in an infant - but for christ sake we all grow up, or we lay in a bed and are called vegetables.

Okay so sree loves ignorance. Why should I be surprised? Lordie knows he embraces it enough.

 

none of this is funny, when I think of the speed at which we are destroying ourselves on every level - and sree is the poster child for the thinking that has brought us all to this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’d been a Wall Street trader on the side, now there’s a background for deep thinking. <i>(though I’ve only known a precious few, and admittedly it was from the vantage point of serving them drinks and listening them trying to out impress each other, while totally ignoring the amazing places they were visiting. Insightful nonetheless.)</i>

@citizenschallengev3

The magic of innocence is absolutely awesome in an infant – but for christ sake we all grow up, or we lay in a bed and are called vegetables.
I never liked going to school. Education deforms the mind turning it into a tool, a coarse implement be it a ploughshare or a violin. I would rather lay in bed, at least past noon, than toil for my daily bread.
Okay so sree loves ignorance. Why should I be surprised? Lordie knows he embraces it enough.
I said “innocence”. Don’t equate that with ignorance which is a state of those who do not know, crave to know but will never be able to know. What they have is knowledge, something made out of nothing, make beliefs about everything. Innocence is a state of non-defilement when the mind is true.
none of this is funny, when I think of the speed at which we are destroying ourselves on every level – and sree is the poster child for the thinking that has brought us all to this point.
No, not me but the likes of you, those who know, that have been bringing about destruction. It is you who have the knowledge that enables you to do this and do that until this God-given paradise is all messed up. Don’t blame the innocent – the squirrel, the bird, and me.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’d been a Wall Street trader on the side, now there’s a background for deep thinking. <i>(though I’ve only known a precious few, and admittedly it was from the vantage point of serving them drinks and listening them trying to out impress each other, while totally ignoring the amazing places they were visiting. Insightful nonetheless.)</i>
Wall Street, yes; trader, no. My father is that Jeremy Irons character in the movie, Margin Call. My mother is a flaming liberal who dragged me, at the age of four, from Fifth Avenue to live with her in the West Village when she could no longer put up with the oligarch. You smelled my blood? Impressive.

A couple of “why” questions asked. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why did the big bang happen? Why do people feel the need to ask why?

A couple of claims that non-medical interventions absolutely don’t work, ever. About the same as claiming that people do not respond to placebos. Well documented in clinical trials. Is mind-over-matter scientific? Certainly seems to be a real thing. Well known that stress causes health problems, and better mental health, including attitude and less stress, yields better physical health. Could it be that meditation and prayer have the same result, calming the mind?

Fact is that the body heals itself. Medicines help the body do its thing, but do not heal. Chemo and radiation kill cells and allow the body to do its thing. Surgery sets things right on a mostly macro scale and allows the body to do its micro thing.

If one were to ask almost any religious leader or medical professional he would be told of many people who were healed by apparently non-medical means. Unbelievers wouldn’t believe it even if there was a compendium of the thousands of case histories. And that’s OK; whether others believe the healing was due to the body doing its thing or due to some intervention, such as prayer, is of no consequence to those who have been healed.

Unbelievers wouldn’t believe it even if there was a compendium of the thousands of case histories.
Funny, because that's exactly what I say would convince me every time someone asks me what I believe or why I accept something as fact. Now, maybe there's a difference in definitions here. A thousand people have said they were cured by prayer, but I've looked in to dozens of those, and I know dozens of people who have looked into more of them, and every time, there is more to the story, like, they went to the doctor, got medicine, and people prayed. A thousands claims are just that, claims. A thousand verified facts, that would convince me.

I don’t know. Everyone I know who had chemo died. From what I’ve seen, if one gets chemo, that’s it and I haven’t figured out why we continue with chemo when that’s the last ditch resort that doesn’t work. Although, I have a co-worker who’s going through chemo for a rare form of breast cancer and seems to be doing well, even though she had to stay home after this pandemic hit, as well as go through cancer treatment. My mother had radioactive iodine for her Grave’s Disease, survived that and lives on levothyroxine and when she had stage 3 breast cancer, it was a chop and radiation, but no chemo. 21 years later, she’s still alive. So I will be thrilled if my co-worker survives cancer and is still around to be seen again after the pandemic is over.

@ibelieveinlogic

A couple of “why” questions asked. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why did the big bang happen? Why do people feel the need to ask why?
They may not be “bad things”, and they may not be “good people”. The need to ask why comes from resistance to and an unwillingness to accept one’s fate in the natural order of things.
A couple of claims that non-medical interventions absolutely don’t work, ever. About the same as claiming that people do not respond to placebos. Well documented in clinical trials. Is mind-over-matter scientific? Certainly seems to be a real thing. Well known that stress causes health problems, and better mental health, including attitude and less stress, yields better physical health. Could it be that meditation and prayer have the same result, calming the mind?
Of course! Faith in God is like faith in your doctor. The effect of “mental stress” on “bodily health” is real. We all have witnessed the power of hypnosis, and psychosomatic disorders are facts.
Fact is that the body heals itself. Medicines help the body do its thing, but do not heal. Chemo and radiation kill cells and allow the body to do its thing. Surgery sets things right on a mostly macro scale and allows the body to do its micro thing.
The body is a marvelous creation and intelligently designed for sane operation. It’s not meant to be used in the way we are using it. When we stray away from order, we invite disorder in the form of diseases and injury. The body is like the car that must be used and cared for properly within design limits. It can be wrecked when driven by a fool. And it’s no point cursing God when we fly like a bird and get killed in the process.
If one were to ask almost any religious leader or medical professional he would be told of many people who were healed by apparently non-medical means. Unbelievers wouldn’t believe it even if there was a compendium of the thousands of case histories. And that’s OK; whether others believe the healing was due to the body doing its thing or due to some intervention, such as prayer, is of no consequence to those who have been healed.
Quite right. To each his own. All I can say is this, if you believe in miracles, thank the Lord; and if you don’t, bugger off. We are a free country.
sree said: Quite right. To each his own. All I can say is this, if you believe in miracles, thank the Lord; and if you don’t, bugger off. We are a free country.
Yeah well....this goes both ways. If you try to disprove science, you can expect to be subjected to the same reciprocal judgement. You can have your cake, but don't try to eat mine also.
I never liked going to school. Education deforms the mind turning it into a tool, a coarse implement be it a ploughshare or a violin.
If you hated grade school blame your apathetic lazy parents!

Oh but than the neo Right has taught us in this country, we gotta blame everyone else, but never ever our selves.

Hey sree, our lover of willful ignorance, have you heard the one about Dancing the Tango?

If your talking past grade school, blame yourself, since the professor can only show you the water trough, so to speak. Of course good instructors can make the world of difference - so bad instructors require a little more self-dedication on the students part, but you don’t belong in higher education unless you have a burning desire to learn something of substance - so you work a little harder and party a little less.

If you are not up to it, it’s beneath the wheel with you. Life isn’t always fair.

But to pronounce a blanket condemnation of education and then start hinting at the superiority of “Miracles” - the fuk’n radio is a miracle as is the computer, not to mention submarines and jet airplanes. You aren’t interested in people believing in miracles, you’re interesting in people believing in unhinged from physical reality fantasies. Now that is messed up, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

@citizenschallengev3

If you are not up to it, it’s beneath the wheel with you. Life isn’t always fair.
I don't know the book but read the review, just now. I guess I am both Hans and Herman in one person. Despite my lack of affinity for school, I aced all my exams and assignments like Hans but suffered no breakdowns. I was not only averse to school but also rebellious, like Herman, against the humdrum of conventional life. Unlike Hans, I have no conflict with life because I have gotten to understand it for what it is. I like life. And now that I understand it, it conforms to me, not the other way round. Living life is like riding a horse. It's fun, if you know how to do it.
I was not only averse to school but also rebellious
If you aced exams, I'm not sure you qualify as rebellious. I think most people feel they were rebellious in school, but what does that mean really?
I like life. -- Sree
Has Sree's account been hacked? I guess it's possible I've been misreading everything he's said for two years, but, hmm?
If you aced exams, I’m not sure you qualify as rebellious.
I was rebellious, but not to the extent of defying my parents who were dead set on me getting an education. I did well in school not out of a love for learning but to kick ass. It was like being the Tom Cruise character in Top Gun at the Naval Academy. I would be damned if I came in second. Numero uno. I was like Trump.
I think most people feel they were rebellious in school, but what does that mean really?
Misfits. Dropouts. They were not a pretty sight. There is a big difference between being an outcast because you couldn't cut it and someone who steps off the beaten path onto something else.