Tim, Tim, sorry to distract. Get back to this thread. Widdershins hits another home run:
Mathematics exists as it does because the universe works the way it does, not the other way around.
Yes, yes mathematics naturally underlies our universe. And just as natural laws came into being along with our universe, so did mathematics. No supreme supernatural entity needed.
But my goodness, man! Consider the implications if T rump has a butt like a tardigrade’s face! His butt may be able to survive absolute zero.
@ Widdershins
W4U said,Michael Behe’s Intelligent Design is founded on the belief that there are “irreducible complexities” which would suggest an Intelligent Designer/Creator, which would be a persuasive argument if it was true.
Note the qualifier "if it was true’. Of course it isn’t true. That’s why it can never be used as a logical rgument. The logic is based on a false premise.
@ TimB…LMAO
I also believe that the natural laws whic came into existence with the universe and its particular properties are mathematical in essence and that human mathematics are functional symbolic representations of these natural mathematical laws, the constants.
It is intersting that all universal processes seem to follow mathematical laws and all living things respond to universal mathematical values, functions and patterns.
How is it that a Lemur can count as fast as a human? It doesn’t know, 1,2,3,4,…etc. but it can recognize and take advantage from "more"as compared to “less”. How is it that the single celled slime mold has a sense of time? All predators use triangulation to hunt.
Those are mathematical cognitive abilities seemingly shared by but a few species of living creatures.
How is it that all elements consist of are self-organizing atoms? How is it that our mathematics work so well in explaining unuversal values and functions? Obviously man does not run the universe, the universe runs everything in a mathematical manner, which fools many people into believing that a motivated intelligence runs the universe because it is mathematical in essence, not realizing that the entire universe is an evolved mathematical construct (pattern) a quasi-intelligent geometric and that humans are evolved products of universal mathematical physical values and mathematically interactive functions.
I find this concept the most elegant and functional of all other concepts.
Correction to above; Those are mathematical cognitive abilities seemingly shared by but a few species of living creatures.Should read ; Those are mathematical cognitive abilities are seemingly shared by ALL but a few species of living creatures.
Widdershins said,Mathematics exists as it does because the universe works the way it does, not the other way around.
Exactly…!!! Human mathematics are based on “discovered” universal mathematical relative values and constant functions.
Tegmark estimates that only 32 relative values and a handful of mathematical equations can describe the entire universe. He does admit that we do not yet have all the necessary information to form a TOE, but that any additional information will be mathematical in nature.
I thought you would like that (and already know it) 
Widdershins said,I thought you would like that (and already know it)
Empathy!
Sure, and life depends on the specific amino acid and protein types.
It does not have any substance, and can not be demonstrated by any ordinary physical means.
What does not have any substance and canny be demonstrated by ordinary physical means? I’m not sure what you’re saying or to what post(s) in particular you are responding.
William said : It does not have any substance, and can not be demonstrated by any ordinary physical means.It's true, life has no substance, living things do. But that's not the OP question. It asks if amino acids and proteins can be formed via abiogenesis. The answers is yes and has been physically proven, i.e. these substances were a result of chemical evolutionary processes.
The natural self-organization of amino acids and proteins has been proven and has been duplicated in laboratory experiments. The Urey-Miller experiment produced a host of amino acids which confirms the self-organization of certain chemicals under certain specific conditions, all which have been part of the earth’s natural evolutionary history.
A typical chain of reactions would proceed as follows:
Prebiotic atmosphere with ammonia, carbon dioxide and water vapor. Lightning produces simple organic compounds that fall into solution in shallow water. The compounds react further in a prebiotic broth, forming amino acids. The amino acids link up with peptide bonds to form polypeptide chain proteins. The proteins combine into more complex molecules that can replicate and metabolize simple substances. Complex molecules and organic compounds form lipid membranes around themselves and start acting like living cells.https://sciencing.com/abiogenesis-definition-theory-evidence-examples-13719058.html
In fairness there are still some outstanding questions, but any evidence would be long gone, just as there are plenty missing fossil examples, due to ravages of time and deterioration. The fact remains that we have theoretical proofs from many sources and known evolutionary processes and there is no reason why we should discount what we do know in favor of speculations about theories we know nothing about at all.
IMO, the self-organization of microtubules, a nano-scale chemical information processor (a natural computer), marked a significant step in the ability for self-duplication processes.
IMO, it is remarkable that Prokaryotic organisms were more bio-chemical than biological, and were an evolutionary dead end. There are but a few prokaryotic organisms left. But the appearance of Eukaryotic organisms which use cell division (mitosis) and now make up nearly all of current biological systems, do have microtubules which are the facilitators of accurate copying of DNA sequencing in cell-division and the constant renewal of healthy cells.
Prokaryotic organisms were more bio-chemical than biological, and were an evolutionary dead end
evolutionary dead-endIs such and ugly word - concept.
Seems to me from what I’ve learned that had our atmosphere remained anoxic prokaryotic cells would still be running the show.
Remember, Scientists tell us that an organism can’t be understood without also understanding the environment they exist within.
Oh.
And furthermore, isn’t it prokaryotic cells that combined to create eukaryotic cells and more complex organisms?
CC-v.3 said ; And furthermore, isn’t it prokaryotic cells that combined to create eukaryotic cells and more complex organisms?You're right. But it is true that Prokaryotes themselves have/had limited evolutionary potential. RNA is not nearly as efficient as DNA
But you are absolutely right that prokaryotes laid the groundwork for the evolution of the Eukaryotes. Most of all they created an oxygen rich atmosphere.
Given the above, we have several biochemical pathways that are uncovered: deriving energy from chemical sources, deriving energy from chemical sources, generating complex organic molecules from simple ones and combusting organic molecules to get energy. All of these pathways originated in the prokaryotes. You can say that the first impact of the development of prokaryotes was on themselves.But wait. There’s more.
Prokaryotes originated this far from incomplete list:
Nutrient recycling
Decomposition
Disease
Oxygen production
Oxygen consumption
symbiosis
endosymbiosis
biological diversity and “species” boundaries
non-reproductive genetic exchange
They were also responsible for the origination of eukaryotes– which is us. They could survive without us– and in fact did for a couple of billion years. We could not survive without them.In short, prokaryotes invented our world. We just happen to live in it
https://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2012/03/04/biological-revolutions-the-prokaryotes-change-the-earth/
And without the Prokaryotes, we probably would never have had an oxygen rich atmosphere.
The cyanobacteria, originating between 2.5 and 3.4 billion years ago, were the first photosynthetic bacteria to use water (H2O) as an electron source. They released oxygen as a waste product. These photosynthetic organisms thrived wherever there was sufficient light and a body of water. However, this created a problem on a global scale. After several hundred million years, free oxygen began to accumulate in the atmosphere, which marks the change from a reducing to an oxidizing atmosphere.Initially the high levels of free oxygen were toxic to life. Several mechanisms evolved to take care of this problem; including the use of oxygen in metabolism. Because we need oxygen for our survival, it is hard to believe that oxygen is toxic to many life forms.
https://wikispaces.psu.edu/display/110Master/Prokaryotes+III+-+Evolution+and+Early+Metabolism
@Write4U: "But wait. There’s more."Ain't that the sweet thing about Evolution and scientific explorations. :-)
Thanks for the link.
In furtherance of the narrative in the above link; Sign in to your account
Plants that participate in these symbioses secrete molecules (e.g., flavonoids) that act as chemical signals to a select species of bacteria. The term rhizobia is applied to several species of bacteria that participate in these symbioses. The targeted rhizobia are induced to respond when the specific chemical signal stimulates specific genes to "turn on."This process is called "quorum sensing" and may well be the very first dedicated language used for communication in living things.
Bacteria then migrate toward the plant's root. Once bacteria reach the root, a developmental change is induced in the root, which results in nodule formation. The bacteria take up residence inside the nodule. Thus, the events of nodule formation involve chemical cross-signaling between the two participants. The environment of the plant-derived nodule is favorable for the fixation of nitrogen by the bacteria that live inside.This is why most living things are in a symbiotic relationship with a non-related species. Each species talking to the other and performing beneficial functions for their symbiont.
This is how language started, chemical “words” which trigger a response in the partner. Bonnie Bassler is an expert in this area and has several Youtube lectures on the subject.
In fairness there are still some outstanding questions...That's the beautiful thing about science, in my opinion. Every "answer" is still an open question and almost always leads to more questions. You can easily show why the ball rolled down the hill on the most basic level. But then you have to wonder why the ball has mass and why the hill has gravity. And why, with all the empty space in between the particles, ball and hill don't just merge. And why changing nothing but the number of electrons, protons and neutrons makes the vastly different colors on the ball or the vastly different elements found in the hill. Or where all those particles come from. And for each one of those questions you answer there are at least a dozen more you could ask about those answers. Knowing all of the answers would make you both the most interesting and most bored person in the world, I think.
Crossing threads a little here W, but that’s how philosophy was once described to me. You keep asking questions about why things are the way they are.
Widdershins said ; Knowing all of the answers would make you both the most interesting and most bored person in the world, I think.Au contraire, the more you know the more amazing it all becomes. The sheer intricacies of the trillions of compound patterns formed from just a few chemicals and their ever more efficient function in the creation of life and consciousness is witness to the power of evolutionary processes over enormous scales and time and the utility of "natural selection" of those emergent patterns which contribute to the constantly increasing complexity and functional sophistication of biomes and microbiomes. The mathematics of this system cannot be improved on.Trial and error eventually produced the entire universe as we know it. How amazingly beautiful is that. The sheer majesty gave rise to the concept of gods, but gods are not necessary. The quasi-intelligent mathematical functions themselves are causal to all of creation.
I don’t know if I’m boring, but everytime I learn something new I want to shout it from the rooftops and share it with other curious minds.
A biome /ˈbaɪoʊm/ is a community of plants and animals that have common characteristics for the environment they exist in. They can be found over a range of continents. Biomes are distinct biological communities that have formed in response to a shared physical climate.[1][2] Biome is a broader term than habitat; any biome can comprise a variety of habitats.While a biome can cover large areas, a microbiome is a mix of organisms that coexist in a defined space on a much smaller scale. For example, the human microbiome is the collection of bacteria, viruses, and other microorganisms that are present on or in a human body.[3]
A ‘biota’ is the total collection of organisms of a geographic region or a time period, from local geographic scales and instantaneous temporal scales all the way up to whole-planet and whole-timescale spatiotemporal scales. The biotas of the Earth make up the biosphere.