Lausten: Then said the barely English, “the topic appeals to you to critically examine….” But now you are calling Perception A Chopra-ish nonsense. Why would I ever attempt to respond to anything you ever say again, knowing that you are knowingly spouting nonsense? You even have the nerve to tell me I should have and that my failure to do so was due to my inability. No, I didn’t respond because it is nonsense.
I just saw the above taken from #320131 which escaped my notice. I know that you view Perception A as a trollish ploy. I disagree but will accede to your call on this. Permit me to make one final attempt to explain before I drop this topic.
Perception A, in conceptual form, is what religion has been saying. In Hinduism, Brahman, which is God, is the entirety of creation out of which materializes the Atman, in the form of the self, the person. God realization is the dissolution of the Atman through transcendental meditation. Spiritualists have been touting this idea which was imported from India. What spiritualists, including Chopra, cannot do is to prove it in scientific terms that are consistent with a world which we, including the spiritualists themselves, live in. If they cannot prove it, then it is non sense.
I can prove Perception A and was hoping to find a receptive mind to share my discovery with. Naturally, I had to probe, to provoke even, to set off an inquiry (rather than an inquisition) into what I want to say. The closest I came was when Bob asserted that “time is an artifact of memory”. However, an assertion, even a scientific one, is no more substantive than a religious superstition. I pursued Bob until I felt that he cannot prove his assertion anymore than Chopra can prove Brahman realization. Enough said.
Been waiting for this move. Claim you have proof for something that has been disproven over centuries, then cry foul before even presenting it. Claim that you need some free wheeling landscape to explore ideas and the lack of that is the fault of everyone except you. Well, that landscape has been all around the world for centuries. There are well funded institutes that investigate this stuff all the time. If you have something that's never been done, go find one of those, they might even let you use their lab.
Perception A, in conceptual form, is what religion has been saying. In Hinduism, Brahman, which is God, is the entirety of creation out of which materializes the Atman, in the form of the self, the person.
You forget that God is an invention of our thinking minds to help explain things beyond our comprehension.
When I claim that nature and god must be the same, it’s the concept of god I’m referring - not the clockmaker, or should I say quark-maker itself.
Citizen: You forget that God is an invention of our thinking minds to help explain things beyond our comprehension.
What you say is true. God is indeed an invention of our thinking minds. Every fool knows that and is proud of that discovery. What about you, the person? Are you not also the invention of your thinking mind?
What you say is true. God is indeed an invention of our thinking minds. Every fool knows that and is proud of that discovery.
What's with the hubris that we invent reality itself? We hallucinate ourown reality. You hallucinate that you invent my reality, but you don't.
In fact I submit that your reality is some distance removed from actual reality. Anil Seth proposed that only when people agree with each others perception we can call that “reality”. I don’t agree with your reality, therefore one of us is wrong and it ain’t me. I don’t claim to invent your reality, because that would be wrong.
Write4U: What’s with the hubris that we invent reality itself? We hallucinate our own reality. You hallucinate that you invent my reality, but you don’t.
By "we", I don't mean the collective comprising you and me. I mean the indivisible "human consciousness"; not the illusory personal consciousness that is believed to have emerged from a particular brain organ. Reality is "human consciousness" itself.
In fact I submit that your reality is some distance removed from actual reality.
It's not "my reality" as opposed to "your reality" as in two nutjobs with differing superstitions.
Anil Seth proposed that only when people agree with each others perception we can call that “reality”.
When people agree with each other's perception, you have a group reality as in Ali Baba and his forty thieves. Mania can infect a tribe, a nation, or the entire world. Groupthink does not equate with sanity.
I don’t agree with your reality, therefore one of us is wrong and it ain’t me.
Agreement is not the issue here. It doesn't matter. I am not selling you anything. I am just showing you error in the computer program we all are running on. If you trust it to be correct and it works for you, go with it.
I don’t claim to invent your reality, because that would be wrong.
You can't invent any reality even if you try. It is there, like a cultural folk story with no known author. It is a computer program generating reality for all mankind. And you are it.
I don’t think trying to correct each other is a good approach in a cooperative effort to think things through. Pointing out error in logic or seeking clarification is helpful in advancing the inquiry.
You don't actually believe that, do you? {Lausten, I do try to restrain myself, but guess it's my drum and I'm going to bang on it. Lordie knows no one has come up with anything more sensible. :-) }
... Gould was missing a much more fundamental divide that is crying out for recognition.
Specifically, the Magisteria of Physical Reality vs the Magisteria of our Human Mindscape.
It was then while I was struggling to find and weave the words to explain myself, that it became clear to me - Earth herself was not only central to my conception of reality, but supreme.
After all, heaven and hell had evaporated long ago and human hubris filled me with contempt rather than any shock or awe.
The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth and her physical processes and the pageant of Evolution are the fundamental timeless touchstones of reality.
Part of Earth’s physical reality is that we humans were created by Earth out of her processes. …
… Which brings me back to Gould’s magisterium and his missing key.
The missing key is appreciating the fundamental “Magisteria of Physical Reality,” - and recognizing that both science and religion are products of the “Magisteria of Our Human Mindscape.”
Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our brain’s mindscape.
Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.
What’s the point? I think it’s about better appreciating our ‘frame of reference’ - and especially recognizing that we aren’t the center of creation.
This is important today because some have convinced themselves that they actually have a personal Almighty God in their back pockets, when in fact our Gods are as transient as governments and the human species itself.
Religions, heaven, hell, science, political beliefs, even God, they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.
That is not to say they are the same thing, they are not! Science is dedicated to honestly and objectively understanding physical reality while religion is concerned with the human imagination and our soul and spirit and our struggles through short life. They are different, but both are necessary human inventions.
Still, both are destined to be swept away by the hands of time, while Earth and life will continue its dance. …
Sree: Reality is “human consciousness” itself.
Citizen: You don’t actually believe that, do you?
Believe it? I am living it! You guys may be coming here to banter because you have nothing better to do. I can understand that. Reality, as you understand it, is settled science. Not to me. I come here out of compassion. Reality is an existential prison. It is real if you accept settled science and are content living in that holosphere as people who live and die on planet earth.
Physiologically, visual perception happens when the eye focuses light on the retina. Within the retina, there is a layer of photoreceptor (light-receiving) cells which are designed to change light into a series of electrochemical signals to be transmitted to the brain. (Wikipedia)
You’re never going to get anything of substance from him anyway. Just vague claims that you’ll never quite understand where he’s going with. Show him where he’s wrong and he’ll just eventually critique the way you respond instead of addressing your response. He’s not here for reasoned, intellectual discussion. He’s here to fantasize that he knows something smart and deep. Don’t know why he doesn’t just take it to a woo forum where everyone will actually think he’s smart and deep.
Physiologically, visual perception happens when the eye focuses light on the retina. Within the retina, there is a layer of photoreceptor (light-receiving) cells which are designed to change light into a series of electrochemical signals to be transmitted to the brain. (Wikipedia)
This is precisely how it happens. There are no open questions to this sensory ability and function.
It is described by the definitions of “afferent” and “efferent” neural functions.
Explanation:
Efferent pathways carry signals away from the central nervous system. Essentially, they are signals that your brain sends to tell your body to do something, like blinking. Afferent signals come from outside stimuli and tell your brain what they are sensing, such as temperature. Afferent neurons bring stimuli to the brain, where the signal is integrated and processed. The brain then coordinates a response via efferent signals back to the rest of the body.
We humans predict ourselves into existence. Which does not mean we have no existence other than our predictions.
Our predictions are subjective beliefs generated by our brains. Existence itself is an objective state of physical being, independent from any internal belief.
Proof of this lies in the fact that all humans physically exist regardless of what they believe is the cause of their existence.
If you believe in a reality different from my belief in a reality, neither of us ceases to exist because of our different beliefs.