You can be so dark Lois. Paul Hawken wrote a book about the vast unnamed movement happening right now. It isn't connected by financial agreements and contracts but by common concerns for the future of humanity. The revolution is happening and it is not televised. It doesn't have one .org website. You won't see it if you aren't out on the streets. ]How does "common concerns for the future of humanity" work if there is no money and no political will to support those concerns? All we would have is people mouthing their concerns and no way to do anything to change the status quo. I don't have to be on the streets to know what is going on. I don't have to be in the streets to know that adding to the problems without fixing the ones we already have and are not addressing is going to help anyone. You are living in a Pollyanna world. Incidentally, how many homeless And desperate people--including immigrants, legal and illegal--have you invited into your home to live an be fully supported by you until they can get on their feet? Lois I just said goodbye to a mother and her three children yesterday. They were kicked out of one house and the other wasn't ready for two weeks. Not that I do that all the time. Last year I was busy rebuilding after my house was filled with water up the the countertops. Luckily there were lots of people who offered me a place to sleep while I did that. I live in a world where there are resources and people help each other. You do to, but for some reason you don't see it. I do see it, but there is no way for individuals to handle the social crisis we face in this country and political gridlock prevents the government from doing anything. Yet you would have millions more enter the country and create a humanitarian crisis that further erodes society. You may find yourself with worse problems than a flooded house as a result.
I do see it, but there is no way for individuals to handle the social crisis we face in this country and political gridlock prevents the government from doing anything. Yet you would have millions more enter the country and create a humanitarian crisis that further erodes society. You may find yourself with worse problems than a flooded house as a result.You keep saying that, but you don't have any evidence for it. Your numbers have been wrong every time. What millions? Estimates of undocumented workers is somewhere around 10 million. That's the total, and it fluctuates. I never said we should increase substantially. What social crisis? What humanitarian crisis? Were you alive in the 60's when people were getting lynched and police were using water cannons. I see some progress in those areas. Gridlock? sure, but can't we talk about what could be done before we figure out how to get politicians on board? I'd rather not turn this into the immigration thread, we already have that. I was responding to:
I’m not so sure that a person who is aware of what is going on in the world today could say he or she is happy.That statement contains no hope. It predicts a bleak future. It ignores the millions of people working to correct the problems. It ignores the comparatively better life most people have now. Caring about social problems is a fairly recent phenomenon for humans. I see that change in attitude as a good thing. After millions of years of throwing rocks at each other, we're finally seeing that caring about someone on another continent has a positive affect on all of us. You just see that we haven't gotten it completely right yet and say we should be unhappy about it.
My goodness, Lausten certainly demonstrates that the title of this post isn’t the only state. He’s apparently an atheist and is living in his mental paradise. Lausten, haven’t you been reading the many posts from CC demonstrating the beginnings of the extreme damage caused by global climate change? Haven’t you been reading about the major shift in percent of middle class downward, and how the wages of most U.S. citizens have remained almost static while that of a few have exploded? Haven’t you been reading about how educational costs in the U.S. has skyrocketed and many college graduates can’t find jobs that even allow them to pay their educational loans?
I agree that technology so far has managed to balance the above damages for many of us, but we must not be blind to the increasing lowest economic class who cannot benefit from that.
Occam
I agree that technology so far has managed to balance the above damages for many of us, but we must not be blind to the increasing lowest economic class who cannot benefit from that. OccamThat could be sarcasm, but let’s assume it’s not. It’s just a list of bad things. Drop yourself into any time in history and see how many bad things you can list. Then list the good things and compare. Yeah, the middle class is shrinking, but we have a middle class! One of the greatest inventions in history. Global warming, sure, because we have technology. Not that it makes it better, but the point is we are seeing consequences of progress, which means we have progress. I was there with a million others in New York who thought Reagan was going to blow up the world. I can be quite dark. But we didn’t do it. We now talk with Russians about how to handle the aging nukes. There is a huge middle ground between “Pollyanna" or “blind" and not being able to be happy because of “what is going on". There isn’t “no money" or “no political will" as Lois says. Even “crisis" is a little high on the scale for me. “Major concerns" or “problems on a global scale" might be more in order. Nothing that justifies not helping a few thousand children. Maybe a new thread in "Philosophy" might be a good place to discuss this.
I doubt that any of us can come up with enough data to convince those of the opposite views. I guess we’ll just have to wait two or three decades to see which of our predictions is more accurate. Unfortunately, life extension research isn’t progressing fast enough to allow me to see those results. Oh well, at least I can die happy, being sure my view are correct. :lol:
Occam
I doubt that any of us can come up with enough data to convince those of the opposite views. I guess we'll just have to wait two or three decades to see which of our predictions is more accurate. Unfortunately, life extension research isn't progressing fast enough to allow me to see those results. Oh well, at least I can die happy, being sure my view are correct. :lol: OccamMy point to Lois was she doesn't use data at all, and lately she's been saying things THAT (edit) are easily shown to be not true. And, I wasn't necessarily making predictions, I asked you to compare now with anytime in history and show me how it is worse now.
I do see it, but there is no way for individuals to handle the social crisis we face in this country and political gridlock prevents the government from doing anything. Yet you would have millions more enter the country and create a humanitarian crisis that further erodes society. You may find yourself with worse problems than a flooded house as a result.You keep saying that, but you don't have any evidence for it. Your numbers have been wrong every time. What millions? Estimates of undocumented workers is somewhere around 10 million. That's the total, and it fluctuates. I never said we should increase substantially. What social crisis? What humanitarian crisis? Were you alive in the 60's when people were getting lynched and police were using water cannons. I see some progress in those areas. Gridlock? sure, but can't we talk about what could be done before we figure out how to get politicians on board? I'd rather not turn this into the immigration thread, we already have that. I was responding to:
I’m not so sure that a person who is aware of what is going on in the world today could say he or she is happy.That statement contains no hope. It predicts a bleak future. It ignores the millions of people working to correct the problems. It ignores the comparatively better life most people have now. Caring about social problems is a fairly recent phenomenon for humans. I see that change in attitude as a good thing. After millions of years of throwing rocks at each other, we're finally seeing that caring about someone on another continent has a positive affect on all of us. You just see that we haven't gotten it completely right yet and say we should be unhappy about it. I can kind of see where Lois is coming from I have a homeless friend without socail security who I have been trying to help out for almost a year. Finding a job for him is tough, and it does sometimes feel like life has no hope of being peaceful. At the same time though, he wasn't depressed for most of the time I knew him. That gives me some hope. The fact that even poor people can be happy and cheerful does provide some relief to me that we may find peace. A lot of the problems seem to boil down to the educational system. Having a population that knows nothing about the world (and is often too arrogant to admit it) means noone is going to take the steps to change it. John Gatto, Neil Postman, Hamza Yusuf, and other thinkers would agree.
I doubt that any of us can come up with enough data to convince those of the opposite views. I guess we'll just have to wait two or three decades to see which of our predictions is more accurate. Unfortunately, life extension research isn't progressing fast enough to allow me to see those results. Oh well, at least I can die happy, being sure my view are correct. :lol: OccamMy point to Lois was she doesn't use data at all, and lately she's been saying things THAT (edit) are easily shown to be not true. And, I wasn't necessarily making predictions, I asked you to compare now with anytime in history and show me how it is worse now. What has been shown not to be true? I gave my opinion, I stated it as my opinion. Who or what has shown,that it is not my opinion? What "data" should I provide to show that it's my opinion? What data do you use to show that something is your opinion? [if necessary, see my explanation under "Introduce Yourself" as to why I had to reregister as a new member under the name LoisL).
The fact that even poor people can be happy and cheerful does provide some relief to me that we may find peace. A lot of the problems seem to boil down to the educational system. Having a population that knows nothing about the world (and is often too arrogant to admit it) means noone is going to take the steps to change it.You've opened a door here I.J. so let me reply that it's not so much the educational system as it is cultural xenophobia. The educational system per se is trying to eliminate that attitude which is why most states are implementing more multicultural programs such as the inclusion of general World History programs, multiple foreign language classes (I've always been very much in favor of BTW, communicating to someone in their own language allows for an easier flow of cultural information) and field trips to other countries for total immersion to name a few. We need more of this plus independent news services that provide non propagandistic pap, just news, local, state, national and international, and not just World Cup soccer scores. Nothing against the sport but this is virtually all the international news John Q. Gets. it's not arrogance, often times it's sheer ignorance. See the "man on the street interviews" on YouTube. Cap't Jack
I doubt that any of us can come up with enough data to convince those of the opposite views. I guess we'll just have to wait two or three decades to see which of our predictions is more accurate. Unfortunately, life extension research isn't progressing fast enough to allow me to see those results. Oh well, at least I can die happy, being sure my view are correct. :lol: OccamMy point to Lois was she doesn't use data at all, and lately she's been saying things THAT (edit) are easily shown to be not true. And, I wasn't necessarily making predictions, I asked you to compare now with anytime in history and show me how it is worse now. What has been shown not to be true? I gave my opinion, I stated it as my opinion. Who or what has shown,that it is not my opinion? What "data" should I provide to show that it's my opinion? What data do you use to show that something is your opinion? [if necessary, see my explanation under "Introduce Yourself" as to why I had to reregister as a new member under the name LoisL). If LoisL is the same as Lois, then you've stated there is a crisis or a crisis looming. In the thread about Mexicans, you tried to back this up with several statements about unemployment, crime and housing. All of them have data that is easily found that showed where you said something was growing, it was in fact shrinking. I provided links there. If you want to give opinions, fine. But don't expect to engage in a discussion if you expect me to simply accept your opinion and move on. That's not what a forum is for.
We’ve been getting along quite well with our climate, but, by your argument, Lausten, Citizenschallenge is completely off base no matter how much data he shows that we are on the way to climate hell, since it’s still pleasant for most of us. His predictions can’t be correct since we are doing well based on our present conditions.
The shift of funds away from the general population to a few at the top is well documented, or do you deny that? If not, then by Lois’ and my predictions, we are going to financial hell just as CC’s predictions indicate impending climate hell.
Occam
We've been getting along quite well with our climate, but, by your argument, Lausten, Citizenschallenge is completely off base no matter how much data he shows that we are on the way to climate hell, since it's still pleasant for most of us. His predictions can't be correct since we are doing well based on our present conditions. The shift of funds away from the general population to a few at the top is well documented, or do you deny that? If not, then by Lois' and my predictions, we are going to financial hell just as CC's predictions indicate impending climate hell. OccamI don't think I argued against anyone saying there is a shift of wealth. I accept the evidence that is true, so why would I? Lois said there was an imminent humanitarian crisis, but didn't define what she meant by that. There are many possible scenarios that could result from wealth disparity, only some of them looking like a humanitarian crisis. I don't think it is too much ask for something other than hand waving from my fellow forum participants.
by your argument, Lausten, Citizenschallenge is completely off base no matter how much data he shows that we are on the way to climate hell, since it’s still pleasant for most of usI don't get this, since I said Lois gave no data at all, and said things that I easily found data against.
I doubt that any of us can come up with enough data to convince those of the opposite views. I guess we'll just have to wait two or three decades to see which of our predictions is more accurate. Unfortunately, life extension research isn't progressing fast enough to allow me to see those results. Oh well, at least I can die happy, being sure my view are correct. :lol: OccamMy point to Lois was she doesn't use data at all, and lately she's been saying things THAT (edit) are easily shown to be not true. And, I wasn't necessarily making predictions, I asked you to compare now with anytime in history and show me how it is worse now. What has been shown not to be true? I gave my opinion, I stated it as my opinion. Who or what has shown,that it is not my opinion? What "data" should I provide to show that it's my opinion? What data do you use to show that something is your opinion? [if necessary, see my explanation under "Introduce Yourself" as to why I had to reregister as a new member under the name LoisL). If LoisL is the same as Lois, then you've stated there is a crisis or a crisis looming. In the thread about Mexicans, you tried to back this up with several statements about unemployment, crime and housing. All of them have data that is easily found that showed where you said something was growing, it was in fact shrinking. I provided links there. If you want to give opinions, fine. But don't expect to engage in a discussion if you expect me to simply accept your opinion and move on. That's not what a forum is for. Is that your OPINION? Or do you have some evidence to back it up? If not, why are you using this forum for an OPINION? Lois
If LoisL is the same as Lois, then you've stated there is a crisis or a crisis looming. In the thread about Mexicans, you tried to back this up with several statements about unemployment, crime and housing. All of them have data that is easily found that showed where you said something was growing, it was in fact shrinking. I provided links there. If you want to give opinions, fine. But don't expect to engage in a discussion if you expect me to simply accept your opinion and move on. That's not what a forum is for.Is that your OPINION? Or do you have some evidence to back it up? If not, why are you using this forum for an OPINION? Lois Yes, it is my opinion that is what a forum is for, and I'm not going to debate that. The guidelines are published. I have the right to say how I would like to be interacted with. You can make your choices accordingly. You've done nothing but avoid the actual questions you raised and sent this off into the bizarro world where you say whatever you want and nobody cares.
I’m moving a post by Mozartlink that essentially duplicates this thread from the new thread he posted to here.
Occam
I am now going to prove how pleasure is more important than any amount of intelligence in the world (and even atheism intelligence such as knowing scientific facts and that there is no God, etc.). I will ask a question of whether you would choose to either be a genius with no ability to experience pleasure or be a dumb person with all the pleasure in the world. For you to choose to be the genius and think that mere thoughts and intelligence is somehow better than feelings of love and pleasure and such, you would be wrong and delusional. I will now prove how feelings of love and pleasure and such are far superior to mere thoughts and intelligence in this case.
As for feeling numb (no pleasure or anything), if I had the choice, I would rather have my full ability to experience pleasure and have many serious things happen to me than to feel numb with no pleasure and have no bad things happen to me at all. I feel that living a life of no pleasure with nothing more than mere thoughts and high intelligence is the worst thing that could happen to someone. If you had the choice to either be a genius with all the intelligence in the world with no ability to experience pleasure or be someone who is very dumb, but has all the pleasure in the world, which would you choose? Some people might choose to be the genius. But as for me, I would choose to be the dumb person and I am going to argue why pleasure is the most important thing here.
When we are faced with any hardship in life, we rely on our ability to experience pleasure to get us through in life. For example, someone with a physical condition would say something to his/herself such as “I may have this debilitating condition, but at least I am still able to enjoy my life." However, when you have your ability to experience pleasure taken away, that would be the worst thing.
Also, if you had the choice to either experience a feeling of love or pleasure towards someone or something or to just simply experience nothing more than a thought of pleasure or love towards that person or thing, which would you choose? I’m quite sure you would choose to experience a feeling of love or pleasure which proves here that feelings are far superior to mere thoughts and intelligence in this case. Therefore, in regards to my question as to whether I would be a genius or a dumb person, I (and others here) should obviously choose to be the dumb person since feelings of love and pleasure are far superior to any amount of intelligence (intelligence being nothing more than mere thoughts and awareness).
Mozart;
If you are going to say things like “you would be wrong and delusional” in your posts, then don’t expect any response from me. You are not opening up conversation, you are shutting it down.
What you are describing is the hellish afterlife experienced by Jacob Marley. He did not realize until after he was dead that he had cut himself off from the pleasure of human company, so he and others were doomed to walk the earth, wanting to care for people, but unable to do anything about it. That would suck. I, OTOH, am not dead, so I can think about what happiness is and find ways to experience it.
Also, if you had the choice to either experience a feeling of love or pleasure towards someone or something or to just simply experience nothing more than a thought of pleasure or love towards that person or thing, which would you choose? I’m quite sure you would choose to experience a feeling of love or pleasure which proves here that feelings are far superior to mere thoughts and intelligence in this case. Therefore, in regards to my question as to whether I would be a genius or a dumb person, I (and others here) should obviously choose to be the dumb person since feelings of love and pleasure are far superior to any amount of intelligence (intelligence being nothing more than mere thoughts and awareness).This is nothing more than the construct of the false dilemma, e.g. "If you're not for us then you're against us". It purposefully excludes the middle ground to create an impression of either one or the other. Or, "would you rather be dumb and allowed to live or intelligent and be put to death"? My answer would be neither. No human is devoid of loving, caring and empathizing with fellow humans unless they are sociopathic. Also, humans have the capacity to be geniuses or at least knowledgable and still be kind and caring. Either ors do not exist in human nature so you are only playing the fictitious "what if" scenerio to what purpose? What if there really were zombies, or what if Napoleon had a B52 bomber at Waterloo? Cap't Jack
I wish to feel superior to reality by embracing fantasy and feeling empowered by fantasy as well as through the delusion that there is a God and an afterlife. But my intelligence (atheism) has prevented me from being this person I want to be. Which is why I hate such intelligence and view fantasy and feelings of pleasure as superior. All that matters in life to me is embracing feelings of pleasure from god-like fantasy which would make me a mystical god-like being who is superior to reality (so to speak, not literally speaking). So all that matters to me is being a superior god-like being in a sense and ending all things inferior in my life. To me, struggles in life, depression, and the fact that there is no God or afterlife are all inferior things to me and must die. So by believing in a God and an afterlife, I would have “killed” this inferior concept of there being no God and afterlife in a sense (including any feelings of depression as well). Feeling empowered and that I’m all great is the only thing that matters to me in life (not in comparison to other people, but in comparison to myself and reality itself).
Oh, you want to return to the matrix. Ok then, live in your solipsistic fantasy World. You may find it hard to shut out what you know is factual.
Cap’t Jack
Also, I already realize that fantasy is not real. But the feelings of pleasure from fantasy (only in terms of electrical activity in the brain), that is real. Me feeling that I’m a superior god-like being is not real, but just the feeling itself in terms of brain activity is real.