Abortion

Politics and Social Issues
41
Nothing extreme about it. .................. "Potential" is a funny word. Under the right conditions and technology the ham on your sandwich has the "potential" to become a human.
Bain: This is another of the most absurd arguments that I have seen in the CFI forums.
Cuthbert: How so? Have you kept up with science at all? Molecular manipulation is a real possibility. Scientists are growing life in test tubes starting from some basic chemicals. It sounds funny, but ham is basic bio material that certainly could some day become grist for the scientists life mill. (Not spam though - that shizz is harsh).
I am a scientist and believe in science. But I would not expect something like ham to be transformed to a complete mammal any time soon. However, a fetus that is up for abortion has a very high probability now to actually develop to be a complete human. I am for abortion or no abortion to be the decision of the pregnant woman. But, I am sorry, I could not change my mind about your comparison of fetus and ham being too absurd.It was just a silly example to make the point that a fetus is bio material. Ham (or let's just say bio material of any sort) is just bio material as well. With the right technology, maybe not current tech, but in the future, bio material from a pig could in fact be used to substitute for human originated bio material.
42
The word “person" is difficult to define. Some people might define a person as a human being who is self-aware. Even the meaning of the phrase “self-awareness" is not exact. It takes years to become a person. You are not a person when you are born, although a baby is legally granted personhood at birth. I don’t know when a human becomes a person. I take care of some terribly challenged humans who may have minimal if any self-awareness. Maybe some people never attain personhood, at least in the philosophical sense. I don’t know if this is true or not. The arguments here have nothing to do with the notion that the embryo receives a soul at the moment of conception and that’s what makes it a person. You have to believe there is a soul; It’s an article of faith. A soul is supernatural, and some of you know where I stand on that. “There are no such things as supernatural beings".
I think the argument should be about when a fetus can be called a "human being", as opposed to a "person". As you pointed out, some human beings probably never attain personhood; i.e., they remain too handicapped over their entire lifetime. But we certainly would not support killing a human being because he/she is too handicapped. The "soul" argument cannot justify opposing abortion; as the soul is supposed to be indestructible. It is the body that decays when the soul leaves it. In other words a soul cannot be killed. These are according to beliefs that secular humanists do not have. I think when a life is self-sustainable but still in the mother's womb, it should have some rights; i.e., the government could have some say on the late-stage abortions. However, at all stages of pregnancy, the mother's decision should be final, as it involves her body. It should be recognized by the society/government that to abort a fetus is always a very difficult decision for the mother, and the decision to abort or not to abort should not be imposed on her by others. In fact the vast majority of fertilized eggs and fetises are lost without human intervention long before birth. Every fertilized egg is not a human being or a "person." If every fertilized egg were brought to term the earth would be completely overrun and mass starvation would ensue. Lois
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In fact the vast majority of fertilized eggs and fetises are lost without human intervention long before birth. Every fertilized egg is not a human being or a "person." If every fertilized egg were brought to term the earth would be completely overrun and mass starvation would ensue. Lois
Yeah and imagine what that train of thought leads to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
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I would like to know how many times the pro-lifers on this forum who consider abortion murder have been pregnant and how many have given birth.

45

I have read that a conservative Texan federal judge has enjoined the federal Food and drugs administration to take off the authorization for an abortive pill, and that in Washington, another one has rejected such a demand.

I am wondering about the position of the Supreme Court, as the decision to authorize or not such a drug is clearly a federal issue.

46

Supreme Court will decide very soon.

If they allow a judge to ban the abortive pill on the whole territory of USA, it means that their position according to which the choice belonged to the electors of each state was pure hypocrisy.

47

And women will truly be second class citizens.

48

On Abortion Rights, considering the fundamentals

I want to start with the greatest truth humanity has achieved, we are born out of Earth’s processes. It’s a truth born out of our increasing understanding of human history going back into the dimmest reaches of Earth’s deep time. Beginning with geology, then biology joined in, then complex biology, then living sensing creatures that created environments and ecology in an ever changing world. Folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the cascade of time, rushing into a future inhabited by humans.

Birth and death is our lot. It has always been part and parcel of our human condition. It can’t be moralized out of existence by idealistic extremists who believe “God” is personally speaking with them.

Pregnancy is never a guarantee. A fetus is a seed, a being, a human potentiality. Spontaneous natural abortions, miscarriages happen. A fetus may be a human, but it doesn’t take on the mantle of personhood until those first breaths of life-giving air are infusing its lungs and pumping through its arteries and veins.

It should be significant that the fact of practicing abortions is older than civilizations, with Jewish scripture going into details on the topic, explaining why within particular circumstance abortion is a sad inevitability and that it is okay in the eyes of their God. (God never promised us a rose garden!)

Beyond that, in a free society, legally speaking, why doesn’t a woman deserve the Right to Self-Defense along with Sovereignty Over Her Own Body?

Pregnancy is a difficult gauntlet, always will be, there will be deaths. Those deaths aren’t confined to unborn beings, all too often the mother is also at mortal risk.

When push comes to shove, a just law would clearly acknowledge that a woman’s life is more precious to her existing family and society than an unborn potentiality.

Another factor all too often forgotten is that facing an abortion situation is nothing any woman (or young girl & her family) ever wants, life thrusts the situation upon her, and it is foremost she, herself, who must continue carrying the consequences of her choices, as others lose interest with the passage of time.

Another unspoken matter is that most often she’s also acting with the best interest of the unborn life within her at heart. The fetus inside of her will always matter more to herself, than to any moralizing bystanders. Women should be entrusted above all others, with the responsibility of making their own best informed choices about their own pregnancies.

49

Well, Sen. Tommy Tuberville (AL) is currently at war with the Defense dept.

Alabama senator blocking military promotions over abortion policy says he’ll ‘work it out’

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The first-term Republican has been blocking the military promotions as a protest against the Defense Department’s policy, announced in February, that grants service members leave and travel allowances for “non-covered reproductive health care,” including abortion procedures

“I’m holding DoD nominations because the secretary of Defense is trying to push through a massive expansion of taxpayer-subsidized abortions — without going through this body. Without going through Congress,” Tuberville said on the Senate floor on March 8.

“Three months ago, I informed Secretary Austin that if he tried to turn the DoD into an abortion travel agency, I would place a hold on all civilian, flag, and general officer nominees.”

more… https://tennesseelookout.com/2023/03/29/alabama-senator-blocking-military-promotions-over-abortion-policy-says-hell-work-it-out/

I have a solution to this brazen Senator’s ultimatum. Call him on his bluff.

Every Democratic governor of a state that allows abortion should issue a State mandated declaration that Senator Tuberville is no longer allowed to travel in or across their state, until he withdraws his opposition to other legal US citizens to travel wherever and whenever they wish for any reason.

Let’s see how he takes “banishment” from unrestricted travel.

50

I like it.
Political theater at its best,
it would be nice to see them Democratic governors grow some . . . , and actually engage in such a counter political stunt.

Well explained and well publicized.

Unless we are changing minds, or at least opening eyes & minds, we are losing. :kissing_heart:

51

Chris Hayes: Control is now a pillar of the Republican vision

May 19, 2023 - #msnbc #republicans #desantis

“Control over your body, your self-expression, your gender identity, your children, your family is what the Republican Party has been obsessed with in these last few years, all over the country, in every state where they have political power,” says Chris Hayes.

By Frances Stead Sellers, Thomas Simonetti and Maggie Penman - May 19, 2023 at 6:00 a.m.
The state’s ban on abortion after 15 weeks of gestation has an exception for fatal fetal abnormalities. But as long as their baby’s heart kept beating, the Dorberts say, doctors would not honor their request to terminate the pregnancy. The doctors would not say how they reached their decision, but the new law carries severe penalties, including prison time, for medical practitioners who run afoul of it. The hospital system declined to discuss the case.

Instead, the Dorberts would have to wait for labor to be induced at 37 weeks. …

By Ruth Marcus - Associate editor, May 19, 2023
Baby Milo’s grandfather thought he might have hiccups. Instead, the newborn was gasping for air. Born without kidneys, his lungs underdeveloped, Milo Evan Dorbert lived for all of 99 minutes. The cause of death was Potter syndrome, discovered at 23 weeks of pregnancy. The cause of unnecessary suffering, for Milo and his family, was a Florida law that doctors said prevented them from terminating the pregnancy, even though it was clear the condition would be fatal.

“To me it’s just pure torture,” said Peter Rogell, the baby’s grandfather. “The law has created torture.” I hope every lawmaker who voted for it, and the governor who signed it, reads, and is haunted by, The Post’s searing account, by Frances Stead Sellers, Thomas Simonetti and Maggie Penman.

The law’s advocates insist that they intended to create an exception to allow abortions in such cases: …

I have a few thing to say to the self-righteous totalitarian Christians who believe in this sort of sadistic disregard for other’s reality - but better hold my tongue . . .

Here’s my more consider feelings on the matter:

52

It gets worse and it’s pure chauvinistic evil, as well as undemocratic. They don’t care what the people want, as long as they gain control over the vulgar. That’s all they want is control, especially over women, the poor, and people of colour.