Why the need for certainty ?

Very quickly, @Sherlock Holmes, as I’m very tied up today

 

I agree about many christian seeking certainty but that is the effect of thousands of years of church structure and doctrine

The thousands of years of church structure and doctrine began as soon as Christianity presented itself as the ONE way to avoid eternal damnation, based on a belief in Christ.
 

All the rest is window dressing. Even amongst America’s most shallow thinkers, it’s all about “Believing in Jesus,” and believing anything WRONG endangers the soul.

Also very quickly

 

Christianity is not unique in this regard, Judaism and Islam are also systems that demand orthodoxy, indeed they are characterized by orthodoxy.
Re Judaism: Yes, Jews are famous for debating and demanding orthodox doctrine...in defining oneself as a Jew (religiously). Judaism does NOT claim, as Christianity does, that every human being in the world must convert to Judaism, and those who do not will be punished in the afterlife.

In regards to Islam, I have discussed this with actual Muslims. Allah is more interested in the outer actions of solidarity to Islam than he is about inner doubts. (Again, I am speaking here of avoiding damnation, not what is “correct” philosophically.

 

Re. Christianity is more complex. This is true a bit less in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but in Protestantism lllthan in Protestantism Martin Luther introduced the idea of “salvation by faith alone,” as opposed to via sacraments or works. That, specifically, has led to an extreme need to be correct theologically inside one’s mind.

 

.

Dear Sherlock,

The Bible is forged. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did Not write any of the gospels. As a matter of fact, the bible was written by unknown authors. Less than 2% of people during that time period could read or write. The first documented accounts of Jesus were written 200 years after his death. Moses was Not even a real person. Evil is real, the devil is Not. 666 does Not stand for Satan, it represents Caesar Nero. The Afterlife was invented. Heaven & Hell are Not real places! We are products of our environment and most of us inherit our religion from our families. How many Amish convert to Hindu ? Go to the Smithsonian Natural History Museum. There are over 19 different hominin species on display. We absolutely did evolve.

9 million children die every year before they reach the age of five. Most of these children will die in terror and agony. Most of these parents believe in God and are praying for their children to be spared. And their prayers will not be answered. According to divine command theory, this is all part of God’s plan. Any God who would allow children to suffer and die in this way is either immoral or impotent. Either God can do nothing to help these children or doesn’t care to. These parents will grieve for eternity! Most of these children will be going to hell because they are praying to the wrong God. Through no fault of their own they were born into the wrong religion and got the wrong theology.

Original sin…Why would God create human beings and then punish them for it ?

I was a devout Christian for 40 years. I now choose truth over comfort.

Stanford University did a 10 year research project on the effectiveness of intercessory prayer. Conclusion: Prayer is a powerful placebo. It taps into the same neurological pathways as meditation providing a peaceful feeling.

The world was created billions of years ago by a process called MTheory (string theory).

Smile and be kind to one another. No Gods required ?

Harvard Divinity has launched the Religious Literacy Project. This 5 day course is open to all educators. Most Ivy League biblical scholars state they Don’t believe in supernatural Jesus. Joel Baded, Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Elaine Pagels, Peter Enns, Hector Avalos and Candida Moss to name just a few.

Why would God have to kill his only son in order for our sins to be forgiven?

Genesis 19:8

See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man by lying with him. Please, let me bring them to you and you may do to them as you wish. Only do nothing to these men for this is the reason they have come under my roof.

So, according to the bible, rape is OK?

In the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to kill the Amakalites.

So, according to the bible, murder is OK?

Not a very good moral book so far. Pretty sure if I were God, I could done a better job writing a moral book!

Do you really think Mother Mary was knocked up by a ghost ?

According to fairy church stories, there are floating zoos (Noahs Ark) and talkung bushes (Moses) ???

You have been infected with the God Virus.

PLEASE, walk into any Pediatric Oncology department and tell me that is a loving God. What kind of all knowing super entity would allow suffering on a child of that magnitude? All because Serpent Satan hoodwinked Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? (Freewill)

Professor Bart Ehrman is a former evangelical minister. He graduated from Harvard Divinity magna cum lade. He has written over 30 books. He is one of the worlds leading biblical scholars.

@SherlockHolmes

All you say is fine. I’m not debating with you. You are answering questions that haven’t been asked here.

@Citizenschallenge-v.3, in the OP, said:

》The few times I have a longer discussions with Christians I’m always struck with their need for certainty – and worse their demand and expectation of certainty...its the belief itself that’s important. What is that about? I’m mean, what’s wrong with belief in this incredible planet ... spend some time listening to Christian radio, it doesn’t take long to notice all the worship this and worship and on and on and endlessly.《
That is the question I am answering. The only question. Very specifically that.

You wrote:

I have found that what is present within the Hebrew scriptures (OT and NT) can be understood on many different levels ...
Yes, this is true. I used to be Eastern Orthodox Christian and it wasn't unusual for people to apply several levels or senses to Scripture:

Lots of different Christians do that, or varieties of that.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

 

You wrote:

(Judaism) also does claim that there is only one God, that God created humans and the universe and so does Islam, these are beliefs and you’ll find most serious Jews and Muslims really do believe this.
 

Dude, I know this. It’s the whole point of monotheism… and is beside, or beyond, the point I was making to Citizens… for the reasons I wrote.

You wrote:

I will tell you my current view though, it is that each of us has or will have a one-to-one “relationship” with God, organizations and groups are unimportant to me.
That's fine and lovely, and doesn't have much to do with Citizen's question.

After decades of constant theological and dogmatic debate inside my head, trying to find the box that God fit in, and ultimately trying to create my own box for him, it came down to this …

◁━━━━◈✙◈━━━━▷

If everyone believed the earth was flat, it would still, objectively, be round. If some people preferred to believe the earth was triangular, and others strongly rejected the earth being square, the earth would still be round.

Regardless of what humans believe, there is an objective reality…even about things we can never know. Therefore, there is an ultimate reality about a creator: a supreme being exists, or does not exist.

Anytime people are discussing religion and they say, “I believe…” “I came to understand…” “To me…” “According to…” etc. etc. etc., they are simply ascribing certain characteristics to this supreme being that they think it has, or that they think it ought to have.

But if that supreme being exists, it is under no obligation to conform to what anyone believes about it. It doesn’t have to be “loving.” It doesn’t have to be anything.

Someone may be absolutely certain that the supreme being spoke to them, led them, or showed them something. However, literally billions of people have felt the same way, over the course of human history, about personal experiences that describe very different and mutually exclusive descriptions of supreme beings. If he/she/it DOES exist, it has not cleared up millions of misunderstandings and false beliefs about itself.

For those who left one faith that was toxic or negative, for another faith that was more tolerant and logical to them, that’s fine according to their own needs but doesn’t say anything at all about how the supreme being REALLY is. It’s wishful thinking.

Given all that, I realized the chances that this being exists are infinitesimally small. What seemed obvious to me is that human beings have created such a being inside their heads, and that is the only place it resides – not “out there,” as an objective reality.

So whether someone believes the supreme being is YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the national god of the Israelites, who delivered the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, and gave them the Law of Moses at biblical Mount Sinai as described in the Torah… or a bowl of raspberry Jello … it’s all the same.

 

 

 

 

TBP, nice to see you back and in top form.

Your last post, especially the last section, is full of goodies that everyone should understand. Many can’t or won’t, but I wish they could or would.

The certainty of religious people is valued in church but a liability everywhere else. If the unwarranted certainty wasn’t there, they could learn and adapt to all the information that comes their way. But they just know they’re right, so their mind is locked.

 

Your last post, especially the last section, is full of goodies that everyone should understand.
@3point14rat

It took me literally more than three decades to come up with that, LOL! I mean, I was deeply enmeshed in Christian theology and dogmatism for years… my entire life had formed around my beliefs, and I had spent years in the interfaith movement and even published a book.

So I knew all those things, intellectually, for a very long time. The moment it gelled, I think – the one “new” element that popped into my mind one day in the kitchen – was the part about a supreme being not being obligated to conform to my preferences about what a supreme being ought to be like…nor to anyone else’s. That was the moment I realized that Liberal Christianity or Unitarian Universalism or some other “friendly” religion simply wouldn’t work for me, because I was just inventing God in my mind.

That’s when God disappeared. I had felt a “presence,” my entire life, until that point. When I woke up the next morning, he was still gone … it was like waking up without an arm. That was 4 years ago and it appears to have been permanent.

...it was like waking up without an arm.
Probably for the best. At least you finally don't need three arm holes in your shirts and a pair of gloves is the right amount.
The moment it gelled, I think — the one “new” element that popped into my mind one day in the kitchen — was the part about a supreme being not being obligated to conform to my preferences about what a supreme being ought to be like…nor to anyone else’s. That was the moment I realized that Liberal Christianity or Unitarian Universalism or some other “friendly” religion simply wouldn’t work for me, because I was just inventing God in my mind.
There are a lot of different ways of losing your faith. It's interesting to hear how others lost theirs so I can see if there are common threads and how similar or different they are from my route out.
There are a lot of different ways of losing your faith. It’s interesting to hear how others lost theirs so I can see if there are common threads.
This was one of a several "final straws" that snapped at around the same time, after a very long period of deconversion.

A couple more were being unable to reconcile an unchanging, perfect God with an apparent difference in strategy between the Old and New Testaments…and realizing that my faith in God was a complication, rather than a comfort, when I was experiencing multiple traumas and losses.

I’ve written tons about my 35-year struggle on Quora, but that site is hard to navigate. I plan to be creating a blog on Medium soon. I appreciate the kind words.

Yay! Tee’s back.

LOL! For the moment anyway.

My mom is in the dying process. I pop in and out online while I’m hanging out here. If I can’t tolerate it I’ll be off again.

Tough times for you.

{Oh, and don’t let the jerks keep you away from your friends. :- ) }

(╯︵╰,)

 

Thanks so much

Tell me does it matter more if 9 million children die in fear or just 1?
Yes
Tell me does it matter more if 9 million children die in fear or just 1?
>>>
Yes
OMG, the false equivalency!!!

This reminds me: I got into an insane debate with a Trump supporter about health care … I said tens of thousands could get sicker and die if the ACA were overturned…He was celebrating Trump’s lifting restrictions on certain experimental treatments … I said, “Yay, that would save one person,” and he came back with “Are you saying one person is less important than tens of thousands??? Who are you to judge that one person??”

 

 

@Sherlock

LOL, this

Blair your post is very long indeed and hard to reply without potentially doubling its size.
Made me laugh. You said something similar about my post on "religion on mental illness," even though it was all headers and bullets, scannable, and my meaning quite discernable compared to many others here. (I'm a journalist & editor.)

It almost seems like an excuse…

 

@SherlockHolmes

Much of “Christianity” is itself misled, in fact it is God who misleads, God who deceives. You’ll find this right there in scripture but I bet you had no idea this was in there?
Actually, a lot of atheists are very aware of these:
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses
And
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things
How do you square this with an all-loving God and humans who willfully disobey?

 

 

So it does matter if 9 million die as opposed to 1. How can you prove this? What scientific argument supports your conclusion? Would you kill one person to prevent the death of your wife? Would you kill two? three? a thousand? at what point would you say “enough is enough, sorry darling you’ll just have to die”?
 

This is all simply silly.

Sherlock wrote:

because the world is upsetting to us we cannot therefore conclude that God does not exist
This misrepresents the argument.

The existence of suffering doesn’t disprove the existence of ANY god. God could be cruel or evil.

It DOES disprove the idea of an all-powerful, all-loving god, as Christianity claims to depict.

Sherlock wrote:

I do not know what you mean by “forged”, everything was of course penned by humans at some point in the past but that doesn’t equate to what was written being false.
Words mean things.
The creation of a false written document or alteration of a genuine one, with the intent to defraud.
In the case of the Gospels, it does matter. Imagine if, today, a journalist wrote a piece claiming to have witnessed the Bush administration planning and executing the 9-11 attacks.

Would it matter to you if he actually had no knowledge of the event at all and was simply pretending to be an eyewitness when in reality he’d been a high school student working at a McDonalds in Peoria from 1997-2001?