# Why all the fuss over public healthcare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics and Social Issues\ **Created:** [March 26, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167 "2020-03-26T16:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/21 "2020-04-05T19:16:52Z")
From: [https://medium.com/swlh/a-guide-to-socialized-medicine-in-other-countries-and-a-comparison-to-the-american-healthcare-f9450804c3ed](https://medium.com/swlh/a-guide-to-socialized-medicine-in-other-countries-and-a-comparison-to-the-american-healthcare-f9450804c3ed) Right wing talking points against socialized medicine: – **A Nation Must Be Tiny for Socialized Medicine to Work** **Wrong.** Japan and Germany are not considered ‘tiny.’ – **A Nation Must Have Tons of Natural Resources** \Wrong.\ (There is plenty of data) that shows that healthcare systems with a higher level of socialized medicine spend considerably less than America. Therefore, the wealth of the nation is not a determinant of whether socialized medicine will work. – **A Nation Must Be Homogeneous** This is ‘dog whistle’ racism, Oneguy. This need for homogeneity follows the same line of reasoning as the argument that American life expectancies are lower than these other countries due to inner-city violence. Of course, if the extreme right wants to do something about inner-city violence, would they not be for responsible gun regulation? The article says that the homogeneous populations in the ‘Scandinavian paradises’ and Japan have a sense of shared obligation that America does not have. So we Americans do not work together toward the shared goal of a better America? Were we not able to work together to overcome the Great Depression and fight World War II? This is an extremely dystopian argument against the American way. America is and always has been a melting pot. We are very good at assimilating other cultures into the American way. We are the most heterogeneous country in the world and our diversity is our greatest strength, not a weakness. – **A Nation Must Have Super Strict Immigration Laws** Really? Now, I understand why Trump has adopted such an evil immigration position. Trump wants to give us socialized medicine! Do not get me wrong, a responsible immigration program along with border security is necessary for our nation. Trump is doing the worst possible job at implementing a responsible immigration program and has adopted a very weak border security policy. Elaboration on border security and immigration is for another story. This is a story about healthcare. The effect of immigration on healthcare is so infinitesimally small that it is beyond the scope of this story. – **America Is Paying for the Defense of the Socialist Countries Therefore America Cannot Afford to Pay for Socialized Medicine** Bull! The data throughout this story show that a higher degree of socialized medicine leads to lower healthcare costs.     ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/22 "2020-04-05T21:14:38Z")
> Certainly the health of people living simultaneously in my life time effects my health. True enough when you're talking about infectious diseases. Otherwise, the health of others doesn't really affect your health. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/23 "2020-04-05T21:37:52Z")
> Right wing talking points against socialized medicine: — A Nation Must Be Tiny for Socialized Medicine to Work Wrong. Japan and Germany are not considered ‘tiny.’ Strawman. There's a difference between being tiny like Luxembourg, midsize like Germany and Japan and massive like America. Smaller countries are simply more manageable. > — A Nation Must Have Tons of Natural Resources \Wrong.\ (There is plenty of data) that shows that healthcare systems with a higher level of socialized medicine spend considerably less than America. Therefore, the wealth of the nation is not a determinant of whether socialized medicine will work. Fair Enough. America does have a lot of natural resources so this argument doesn't make sense anyway. >   > > — A Nation Must Be Homogeneous This is ‘dog whistle’ racism, Oneguy. This need for homogeneity follows the same line of reasoning as the argument that American life expectancies are lower than these other countries due to inner-city violence. Of course, if the extreme right wants to do something about inner-city violence, would they not be for responsible gun regulation? The article says that the homogeneous populations in the ‘Scandinavian paradises’ and Japan have a sense of shared obligation that America does not have. So we Americans do not work together toward the shared goal of a better America? Were we not able to work together to overcome the Great Depression and fight World War II? This is an extremely dystopian argument against the American way. America is and always has been a melting pot. We are very good at assimilating other cultures into the American way. We are the most heterogeneous country in the world and our diversity is our greatest strength, not a weakness. It’s racist to require homogeneity? Well that’s too bad because its absolutely true. All successful socialist nations are homogenous. Using the WW2 era as an example of American teamwork is a bad example because America was much Whiter then compared to today. > — A Nation Must Have Super Strict Immigration Laws Really? Now, I understand why Trump has adopted such an evil immigration position. Trump wants to give us socialized medicine! Do not get me wrong, a responsible immigration program along with border security is necessary for our nation. Trump is doing the worst possible job at implementing a responsible immigration program and has adopted a very weak border security policy. Elaboration on border security and immigration is for another story. This is a story about healthcare. The effect of immigration on healthcare is so infinitesimally small that it is beyond the scope of this story. This fits into the need for a homogenous society. > — America Is Paying for the Defense of the Socialist Countries Therefore America Cannot Afford to Pay for Socialized Medicine Bull! The data throughout this story show that a higher degree of socialized medicine leads to lower healthcare costs. Yes socialized medicine does cost less, but again -- it requires a smaller, homogenous society. America does protect socialist Europe which does free up their budgets for welfare. ---
**Author:** ![halster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@halster](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/halster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/24 "2020-04-05T22:50:37Z")
> True enough when you’re talking about infectious diseases. Otherwise, the health of others doesn’t really affect your health. > > 1 question for “that 1 guy?” Seriously, do you live under a rock? ---
**Author:** ![sree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@sree](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/sree)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 2:21pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/25 "2020-04-06T14:21:31Z")
> @halster > > 1 question for “that 1 guy?” Seriously, do you live under a rock? Can you explain your question? How does the health of others affect Bill Gates’ health, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/26 "2020-04-06T16:42:54Z")
> There would be a big tax increase for the shrinking middle class, but the bigger issue is the fact that many productive Americans don’t feel a responsibility to pay for someone else’s medical care. It's amazing that people say this. Do you not understand how insurance works? Even Fox and Friends says it, and they still have a show, they weren't laughed out of existence. If you think it's fine paying a private company to hold your money, then give it back when you are in dire need, and put limits on how much it will give back, and skim off a whole bunch of it for their yachts and 3rd house, well, that's what you have. ---
**Author:** ![halster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@halster](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/halster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/27 "2020-04-06T17:08:16Z")
> the health of others doesn’t really affect your health, sree you really believe that? If you mention Bill Gates because he is a billionaire , many graveyards are populated with people of royalty and riches and not as a result of death by infectious disease. ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/28 "2020-04-06T17:39:37Z")
**Of course,** the health of others affects the health of particular individuals in our society. If too many people have poor health (and get treatment) due to whatever reason, that affects the affordability and efficient functionality of the healthcare system that is available to us individuals. The very suggestion, that the health of many doesn’t effect the health of others, is based on an ignorant, wrong headed perspective. **Get real.** ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/29 "2020-04-06T17:51:27Z")
Oneguy said, “It’s racist to require homogeneity? Well that’s too bad because its absolutely true. All successful socialist nations are homogenous. Using the WW2 era as an example of American teamwork is a bad example because America was much Whiter then compared to today.” TimB replied: You want to require homo-geneity? Our hetero-geny is our greatest strength. Assimilation has always been a relative strength. Before WWII, blacks were not considered worthy to be a part of front line participation in our warfare. That only changed during and after the war. But change it did. If any nation can assimilate well enough to get past the falsely assumed differences of race, it is the USA. USA! USA! ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/30 "2020-04-06T18:11:04Z")
TimB said: Right wing talking points against socialized medicine: — **A Nation Must Be Tiny for Socialized Medicine to Work** **Wrong**. Japan and Germany are not considered ‘tiny.’ Oneguy said: “Strawman. There’s a difference between being tiny like Luxembourg, midsize like Germany and Japan and massive like America. Smaller countries are simply more manageable.” TimB said: So you are changing the assertion to **A Nation Must Be Tiny _OR Midsize_ for Socialized Medicine to Work.** Well, what country of over 300 million people has failed in trying to institute socialized medicine? What is the LARGEST country by 5 x’s the US? They have had socialized medicine for a LONG time. _In fact,_ China’s rush to privatize in 2009 left hundreds of millions without healthcare. [https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/06/11/chinas-de-socialized-medicine/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/06/11/chinas-de-socialized-medicine/) But, of course, now you will bring up your other right wing talking point that CHI-nah is more homogenous than the US. Well, CHI-nah has a bit of its own heterogeneity. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/31 "2020-04-06T22:34:05Z")
Minorities only make up about 7% of China. [The majority are ethnic Han.](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html)   > 1,394,015,977 (July 2020 est.) country comparison to the world: 1 Nationality: This entry provides the identifying terms for citizens - noun and adjective. > > noun: Chinese (singular and plural) > adjective: Chinese > Ethnic groups: > This entry provides an ordered listing of ethnic groups starting with the largest and normally includes the percent of total population. > > Han Chinese 91.6%, Zhuang 1.3%, other (includes Hui, Manchu, Uighur, Miao, Yi, Tujia, Tibetan, Mongol, Dong, Buyei, Yao, Bai, Korean, Hani, Li, Kazakh, Dai, and other nationalities) 7.1% (2010 est.) > note: the Chinese Government officially recognizes 56 ethnic groups     >   ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/32 "2020-04-06T22:50:36Z")
Besides that fact, China is a totalitarian dump with public and private options. And most health care in China is of [poor quality.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China) ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/33 "2020-04-06T23:00:36Z")
> TimB replied: You want to require homo-geneity? Our hetero-geny is our greatest strength. Assimilation has always been a relative strength. Before WWII, blacks were not considered worthy to be a part of front line participation in our warfare. That only changed during and after the war. But change it did. If any nation can assimilate well enough to get past the falsely assumed differences of race, it is the USA. USA! USA! Fun fact -- WW2 was the last war America fought with a segregated military and also the last war _we had decisive victory against an extremely powerful enemy._ The only other decisive victory since then was Operation Desert Storm but that was barely a war and it was against an extremely weak conventional military. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/34 "2020-04-06T23:11:52Z")
> It’s amazing that people say this. Do you not understand how insurance works? Even Fox and Friends says it, and they still have a show, they weren’t laughed out of existence. If you think it’s fine paying a private company to hold your money, then give it back when you are in dire need, and put limits on how much it will give back, and skim off a whole bunch of it for their yachts and 3rd house, well, that’s what you have. Insurance serves a reasonable purpose; you pay to be protected from bigger unexpected costs. ---
**Author:** ![sree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@sree](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/sree)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/35 "2020-04-06T23:35:41Z")
> @halster: If you mention Bill Gates because he is a billionaire , many graveyards are populated with people of royalty and riches and not as a result of death by infectious disease. You are talking about something else unrelated to what @thatoneguy was saying: his state of physical health which is unconnected to your diabetes or gout. He was not talking about getting killed by a mugger or a mob in a revolution of progressive liberals when Trump wins the election in November. ---
**Author:** ![sree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@sree](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/sree)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/36 "2020-04-06T23:41:02Z")
@timb > Of course, the health of others affects the health of particular individuals in our society. If too many people have poor health (and get treatment) due to whatever reason, that affects the affordability and efficient functionality of the healthcare system that is available to us individuals. > > The very suggestion, that the health of many doesn’t effect the health of others, is based on an ignorant, wrong headed perspective. Get real. You are presumptious. I am not in your healthcare system anymore than the squirrels in my garden are. ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/37 "2020-04-07T17:15:02Z")
Sree, I don’t know where you get your healthcare. It doesn’t matter (in regards to the question of whether the healthcare for others can effect your health) if you are in my country. If, as is the case in my country, many millions of citizens have no healthcare other than using the emergency rooms, the costs go up for all. And in a pandemic, as we have now in my country, no healthcare for millions will help the infection succeed. While the resulting destruction to much of our economy, effects all of us. ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/38 "2020-04-07T17:15:55Z")
I suppose the squirrels in your garden are safe, though. ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/39 "2020-04-07T17:40:39Z")
Oneguy, We won Desert Storm because of the use of “overwhelming force” while also having the support of vast multi-national cooperation with allies. Our WWII victory might have come sooner if we had had the benefit of having blacks being accepted as equal members of the Armed Forces. Consider the performance of all black units that were allowed on the front lines. Here are some **Ethnic** (aka “black”) units in the US Army in WWII 92nd Infantry Division 366th Infantry Regiment 93rd Infantry Division 369th Infantry Regiment 371st Infantry Regiment 2nd Cavalry Division 4th Cavalry Brigade 9th Cavalry Regiment 10th Cavalry Regiment 5th Cavalry Brigade 27th Cavalry Regiment 28th Cavalry Regiment **Air Corps Units** 332d Fighter Group (Tuskegee Airmen) Non Divisional Units Infantry Units 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion Cavalry/Armor Units US Military Academy Cavalry Squadron 5th Reconnaissance Squadron 758th Tank Battalion 761st Tank Battalion 784th Tank Battalion **Field Artillery Units** 46th Field Artillery Brigade [15] . 184th Field Artillery Regiment, Illinois National Guard. 333rd Field Artillery Regiment [16] . 349th Field Artillery Regiment [17] 350th Field Artillery Regiment [18] 351st Field Artillery Regiment [19] 353rd Field Artillery Regiment [20] 578th Field Artillery Regiment [21] 333rd Field Artillery Battalion 349th Field Artillery Battalion 350th Field Artillery Battalion 351st Field Artillery Battalion 353rd Field Artillery Battalion 578th Field Artillery Battalion 593rd Field Artillery Battalion 594th Field Artillery Battalion 595th Field Artillery Battalion 596th Field Artillery Battalion 597th Field Artillery Battalion 598th Field Artillery Battalion 599th Field Artillery Battalion 600th Field Artillery Battalion 686th Field Artillery Battalion 777th Field Artillery Battalion 795th Field Artillery Battalion 930th Field Artillery Battalion, Illinois National Guard 931st Field Artillery Battalion, Illinois National Guard 969th Field Artillery Battalion 971st Field Artillery Battalion 973rd Field Artillery Battalion 993rd Field Artillery Battalion 999th Field Artillery Battlaion **Tank Destroyer Units** 614th Tank Destroyer Battalion 646th Tank Destroyer Battalion 649th Tank Destroyer Battalion 659th Tank Destroyer Battalion 669th Tank Destroyer Battalion 679th Tank Destroyer Battalion 795th Tank Destroyer Battalion 827th Tank Destroyer Battalion 828th Tank Destroyer Battalion 829th Tank Destroyer Battalion 846th Tank Destroyer Battalion **Two segregated units were organized by the United States Marine Corps:** 51st Defense Battalion. (Composite) 52nd Defense Battalion. (Composite) Ethnic units in the US Army ---
**Author:** ![timb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/timb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167/40 "2020-04-07T17:54:25Z")
[https://www.historynet.com/african-american-platoons-in-world-war-ii.htm](https://www.historynet.com/african-american-platoons-in-world-war-ii.htm) The Americans of K-Company, mostly white men from the Jim Crow South, were dug in on the east bank of the Rhein, on 3/15/45. They were in danger of being overrun by the Germans who were also white men. They did not know if they would survive the night. “_In the late afternoon, however, the men heard a roar of gunfire, indicating that a sharp engagement was being fought on the wooded hillside below their position. When the firing finally died down, the Americans feared the worst, and the sound of men approaching only increased their apprehension. As a ragged line of soldiers began emerging from the woods, ducking under the low branches of the firs and hardwoods, the men of K Company hunkered down in their foxholes, gripping their weapons and straining to get a good look. To their relief, they could soon see that the advancing men were clad in olive drab and wore American pot-like helmets. However, as the approaching troops came closer, the GIs in K Company saw that their faces were **brown** and seemed to merge with the mud color of their helmets. Their relief was quickly displaced by shock._”   [Previous page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/why-all-the-fuss-over-public-healthcare/7167.md?page=3)