Lois this conversation has diverged a bit but you are correct. Patients should ask questions. Doctors are not mind readers. We may think we have explained things clearly but patients have different levels of comprehension so its difficult to know whether a patient has fully understood everything we've told them. Everyone learns differently and not everyone has the same working vocabulary so sometimes I have to explain things more than one way before a patient understands what I am trying to tell them. We may also assume some things are just common knowledge or common sense ( ie. don't take twice the recommended dose of a drug) but that may not always be the case for everyone You make a good point about OTC meds and it goes back to what I said above. One would think that common sense alone would tell anyone that they should not take medication above its recommended dose.You would think that any rational person would realize that ignoring medication directions could result in harm but as previously stated not everyone has the same level of understanding. This is a real problem when making meds OTC. Meds are put over the counter when its felt that they are relatively safe when used as directed and that access to them without a prescription would benefit the public. Its a delicate balance though. We are not a homogenous population in terms of intelligence and education so ther is always the risk that someone may misunderstand directions or use poor judgement. You also pointed out an issue with OTC meds that needs correction and hasn't been adequately addressed. Many OTC products are combination meds with more than one active ingredient and the average person may not even realize they are taking two preparations with the same drug in them. It would make a lot of sense especially with cold and pain products for the ingredients to be coded in such a way that someone would be able to easily determine that the product they are taking has something in it that is also in another preparation they are using. Two preparations may have antihistamines in them but different antihistamines so that you wont realize this unless you have a medical or chemistry degree. Perhaps they could have a panel on the label with a purple block of color for pain relieving ingredients, a red block of color for antihistamines and a yellow block for decongestants etc. In big letter they could explain that one should not take two products with the same color blocks on the side. Its been a problem for a long time and recently they addressed the acetaminophen issue by putting labels saying "this product contains acetaminophen" but that only addresses one ingredient and is easily overlooked. The FDA really needs to rework that.I was the one who said patients should ask questions and all, not Lois. Thank you, I'm glad we could find some common ground and understanding. However, I think common sense should apply with any drug used a medication, even if it's peppermint tea for an upset stomach. BTW, I don't have a medical or chemistry degree and I knew two different antihistamines are bad to ingest, as well as recognize when an ingredient is more or less doubling up, even if it is two different types of the same thing, and what can interfere with the medications I take. So I don't think you need a chemistry or medical degree to know this, but I do think one needs to educate themselves about their medications and all. Anything short of educating yourself on what the doctor gives you or treats you with is blind faith and very dangerous, just as taking something like willow bark tea or any alt med without any education about it. Even mixing St. John's Wart with an anti-depressant, such as Proxac or Valium could be deadly, even if you think you know about St. John's Wart.
Mriana, there are a number of differences between willow bark and aspirin, and there are good reasons to prefer one over the other.
Willow bark has an inconsistent, unpredictable, and complex mixture of active chemicals in it, so every time you take it you get something different. And, unfortunately, the current regulations in the U.S. don’t require any quality control for “natural” herbal products, so pretty often these things turn out to be contaminated with heavy metals or even undisclosed pharmaceuticals. Aspirin, on the other hand, has a predictable and consistent amount of a known substance in it, and this quality is regulated. So aspirin is safer and more predictable than willow bark.
The fact that a plant has a chemical in it which, when identified, isolated, and tested turns out to have medical benefits doesn’t mean that eating the plant is equivalent to taking a medicine made from it. Millenia of trial and error experimentation with plants found a few useful substances. A few centuries of controlled scientific experimentation have found thousands. It is the method of identifying the risks and benefits of something that really distinguishes science-based medicine from folk medicine. Science-based medicine is, of course, imperfect and mistakes are made because it is a human activity and humans are imperfect. But the whole point of the thing is thhat science is a process for compensating for this imperfection, and it really does work better than anything else we’ve come up with so far. There is no “blind faith” here, simply a conclusion based on pretty good evidence.
Yes, humans are fallible, but it seems to me, for humans to go from willow bark to synthetic components of the ingredient/element that helped with pain, seems to me that we’ve come a long ways, but we still have quite a ways to go. Even so, without questioning (this even includes vets) then we are taking the dr’s word on blind faith, without educating ourselves about what the dr is giving us or even our pets. This isn’t the best example, because it isn’t ancient meds v modern meds, but it does deal with alternative treatments and without knowledge of thyroid problems (which run in my family), I would not have known even a fraction about what I know when one of my cats developed an over active thyroid problem. I knew to ask, “My mother had Grave’s Disease, they killed it with radioactive iodine and now she has to be on thyroid medication for the rest of her life. Will Suga’Ray need to be on it for the rest of his life?” The answer, of course, was yes and she was pleased that I knew something about thyroid problems, albeit in humans. When she started talking about a $1000 surgery, radiation, etc etc, I had to stop her and say, “Doctor, I love my cat, but there is no way I can afford a $1000 surgery. Is there another way to treat this?” We went with just the thyroid medication and we were, luckily, able to get his thyroid levels down. Of course, she did say, if it didn’t work, he could still live a quality life without the surgery, which I question, but she probably said it because I also said I wasn’t ready to give up on him just because I couldn’t get him surgery and he had a thyroid problem. Even so, I had all the information I needed to weigh the risks and benefits of a treatment that was within my means, with a good potential that he would still have a quality life without surgery, even if it ended up we only brought down from 10 to 8 (or whatever it was) with medicine, instead of lower like we succeeded in doing, and at 15 years of age, that risk wasn’t too bad, IMO. I took a risk in treating my cat’s over active thyroid and did well, without being pushed into something I could not afford, but only because I did not blindly accept my cat’s dr’s first recommendation. I questioned it and in the end, did well by both my cat and me- $22/month medicine for the rest of his life (for now at least) v $1000, up front, surgery (which he didn’t actually need). Either way, he’d still be on medication for the rest of his life, but the cheaper route worked without the questionable surgery.
My point is, 1. if we don’t educate ourselves, we won’t know the questions to ask, even when talking to a vet 2. if we don’t question the doctor’s recommendations, then we’ll never know if there was an alternative way of treating an illness- ie costly surgery for a 15 y.o. cat v medication that may or may not bring it back to within normal 3. we could spend more money than we really need to spend or can afford, if we just accept things blindly 4. even those treatments could have side effects, which we need to know about and understand, as well as success and failure rates 5. we cannot make an informed decision without knowledge and if we blindly accept medicine/treatment, then we are not making informed decisions about our health or our family’s health (including pets). 6. blindly accepting a treatment without question, could end up costly. 7. without asking questions, we cannot weigh the risks and benefits of various treatments and make an informed decision. Granted, my neuro-psychology studies and Biomedical classes, as well as family experiences with various illnesses deal with humans, I have some basis to work off when talking to my cats’ doctor, another psychologist or psychiatrist or my own doctor, making every attempt to keep up with more recent findings, and not everyone has such advantages, but that doesn’t mean they can’t try to educate themselves and ask questions, instead of blindly taking/accepting any medicine/treatment a doctor gives them.
IMHO, we should question everything when it comes to medicine, whether if it’s willow bark tea v modern day aspirin or surgery v medication alone. To do otherwise, is, IMO, to accept on blind faith.
I absolutely agree that it is our responsibility to be educated patients (and veterinary clients). I find it much easier to work with well-informed clinets in making decisions about their pets. I think the idea of blind obedience to doctors is passe even among doctors, and I certainly don’t think macgyver or I are advocating it.
Still, no one can be an expert on everything, and much alternative medicine is supported by smart, educated people who believe their medical judgment is equal to that of their doctors, even when the evidence is clearly against them. There is a reason we pay people to help us with their expertise, and some level of trust is required. I don’t second guess my tax accountant or my airplane pilot much because I know I’m not qualified to evaluate their judgment in most cases. Even in medicine, where I have extensive education and experience, I take my doctor’s recommendations very seriously. I had to have a minor surgery last year, and after a week of intensive research I met my surgeon, and I had a clear plan for what I wanted her to do. She listened and then explained quite reasonably why she felt a different plan was more appropriate. I took her advice because even as an educated consumer of healthcare services, I recognize that she was likely to be a better judge than I in this case.
So no one here would suggest not questioning anything and everything. But when thoughtful, evidence-based opinions about medical subjects are offered here by healthcare professionals, they seemed to be frequently rejected without due consideration, or characterized as just another kind of bias. I think the idea of pure relativism, where all opinions about scientific subjects are considered equivalent, or the idea that everyone can be an independent expert after a Google search, are just as dangerous as slavish obedience to purported authority figures. I don’t claim to know how one strikes the perfect blanace between the two, but I just offer the suggestion that a balance is what we should be seeking.
If a doctor can give a reasonable reason as to why they think their way is better, then we should listen to what they have to say, but jumping right to surgery isn’t always the best plan, esp if there is a reasonable alternative (not talking about alternative medicines), like there was in Suga’Ray’s case. Sometimes the less extreme works and sometimes it doesn’t, but it still behoves us to ask questions before jumping to expensive extreme measures. I think we need to think about everything we put in and do to our bodies, even with modern medicine. I think it’s reasonable to even questions the use of Botox, even though it’s part of modern medicine (cosmetic surgery). What thinking person would ingest botulism (Clostridium botulinum to be exact, an acute toxin) or any other known toxin? Yet, they put it under their skin to remover wrinkles. Makes no sense to me and makes me wonder if Botox is short for [bo]tulinum [tox]in and the women who use it aren’t thinking or are just plain uneducated. Luckily, despite or in spite of FDA approval Botulinum toxin - Wikipedia (why I’m not sure) and doctors who agree to do the procedure, no one has yet died from it that I’ve read and yet, you say we shouldn’t second guess doctors or the FDA? Sorry, but when I think about botox, I have to laugh about not second guessing doctors. I bet, if I went into my doctor and told her I want to get rid of the lines on my forehead, she’d probably suggest botox. Sorry, but I’m not that anxious to put a highly toxic substance, which causes food poisoning, under my skin just to get rid of my squint mark or worry lines on my forehead OR even use it to rid myself of migraines. I would strongly question her if she suggested it for my migraines and I’m not making this crap up: Botox injections - Mayo Clinic The Mayo Clinic? Seriously? Willow Bark or Botulism? Humm… Common Mckenzie, you can’t be serious that you wouldn’t question a dr, and even the FDA’s approval, who wants to try botulism to help one suffering from migraines?! I don’t mean to laugh, but surely you would question such a dr and even the Mayo Clinic on this one.
Alleged medical uses of botulism, not limited to cosmetics, some of which are found on the Mayo Clinic link: Botulinum toxin - Wikipedia , which can cause side effects, not limited to “weight loss by increasing the gastric emptying time”. It’s also a neurotoxin, besides botulism: drugs dot com/cdi/botox.html Oh and correction, at least according to Wiki (yes, not a medical source, but still, you’d have to be an idiot not to think death possible)- it apparently has caused some deaths. Sounds as bad as doctors once recommending patients to take up smoking for their asthma, which some did in the past. You seriously can’t mean it when you say we cannot second guess our doctors, even with modern medicine. Sorry, but IF any doctor recommended Botox for my migraines, I’d be out of there in a heartbeat and seeking a second opinion! No way in hell am I using food poisoning to treat my headaches or remove my wrinkles!
It is possible to end up stranded out in the wild, but I don't think mountain climbers would have access to willow bark trees. Hunters, campers, and hikers, maybe, but as you said, one would need to be able to identify the tree correctly and know how to make the tea. Very few of us now days know how to identify various trees and plants, unless our elders took the time to teach us. My great grandmother enjoyed May Apple soup, BUT you have to catch it at the right time of year AND use the right part of the plant or it is pure poison. That reminds me, I worked at a day care once and there was poke weed growing all around the play ground. The staff and owner had no idea what the plant was or that it was poison, even upset that I tried hard to keep the kids away from it, until I told them, along with how to get rid of it, so the children don't eat the berries. They didn't believe me and proceeded to look it up on the internet. They finally acknowledged I was right and killed the poke weed as I told them to do. I'm often amazed how little people know about plants and trees in today's society.Let's hope nobody mistakes a machineel or a water hemlock for a willow (both are found in the US. The water hemlock is quite common.) Lois
Common Mckenzie, you can’t be serious that you wouldn’t question a dr, and even the FDA’s approval, who wants to try botulism to help one suffering from migraines?!...You seriously can’t mean it when you say we cannot second guess our doctors, even with modern medicine.I begin to wonder if you even read my posts since you consistently attribute comments and positions to me that I haven't stated or implied! I said outright, "I absolutely agree that it is our responsibility to be educated patients " and "no one here would suggest not questioning anything and everything." I cannot imagine how you got the impression that I was suggesting not questioning doctors from anything I actually said.
It is possible to end up stranded out in the wild, but I don't think mountain climbers would have access to willow bark trees. Hunters, campers, and hikers, maybe, but as you said, one would need to be able to identify the tree correctly and know how to make the tea. Very few of us now days know how to identify various trees and plants, unless our elders took the time to teach us. My great grandmother enjoyed May Apple soup, BUT you have to catch it at the right time of year AND use the right part of the plant or it is pure poison. That reminds me, I worked at a day care once and there was poke weed growing all around the play ground. The staff and owner had no idea what the plant was or that it was poison, even upset that I tried hard to keep the kids away from it, until I told them, along with how to get rid of it, so the children don't eat the berries. They didn't believe me and proceeded to look it up on the internet. They finally acknowledged I was right and killed the poke weed as I told them to do. I'm often amazed how little people know about plants and trees in today's society.Let's hope nobody mistakes a machineel or a water hemlock for a willow (both are found in the US. The water hemlock is quite common.) Lois I agree, esp when it is obvious even people who own daycares don't have a clue what poke weed (or other obnoxious weeds) is, how children could be attracted to eat the berries, and be poisoned, sometimes dying. Very few people know their plants and weeds any more. I'm just grateful my grandparents and great grandmother had the sense to teach me what they knew, including telling that poke weed berries are "for the birds" and could kill me if I ate them. They were diligent about teaching me these things and I'm glad, but I wouldn't recommend anyone try to make and eat May Apple soup. One has to be extremely precise about when they make it or they die and I don't want to be responsible for that by trying to teach them. I won't even try it due to the preciseness of it.
Because you were talking about not second guessing... To be exact:Common Mckenzie, you can’t be serious that you wouldn’t question a dr, and even the FDA’s approval, who wants to try botulism to help one suffering from migraines?!...You seriously can’t mean it when you say we cannot second guess our doctors, even with modern medicine.I begin to wonder if you even read my posts since you consistently attribute comments and positions to me that I haven't stated or implied! I said outright, "I absolutely agree that it is our responsibility to be educated patients " and "no one here would suggest not questioning anything and everything." I cannot imagine how you got the impression that I was suggesting not questioning doctors from anything I actually said.
There is a reason we pay people to help us with their expertise, and some level of trust is required. I don’t second guess my tax accountant or my airplane pilot much because I know I’m not qualified to evaluate their judgment in most cases. Even in medicine, where I have extensive education and experience, I take my doctor’s recommendations very seriously.
I took her advice because even as an educated consumer of healthcare services, I recognize that she was likely to be a better judge than I in this case.Frankly, if I thought she was a better judge (at least in my case), I wouldn't have asked my 15 y.o. cat's vet if there was an alternative to a $1000 surgery, along with radiation costs, because I didn't wish to euthanize him over an over-active thyroid I couldn't afford if we went to extremes before trying something else first. If I hadn't asked and reminded her of my financial limitations, then we never would have tried just the medication alone to see if it worked before going to extremes. Yes, I have some knowledge of human thyroid problems, but only due to seeing some family members having thyroid problems, including Grave's Disease, but I don't know about cats with thyroid problems, except to assume that medication, with or without the surgery is a lifetime. However, it was seeing the human experience that gave me the ability to know what questions to ask concerning my cat. Some things can and sometimes do carry over to other animals and in this case, some of it did, enough to ask the right questions before jumping to extremes. Fifteen, as you know, is a pretty good age for a cat, but if his life would not be quality without surgery and all... :( I'm glad she opted for just the medicine to see if that alone worked and it did, leaving me with just paying for blood work, for a while until stable and then every 6 months, and the cost of his med every month, saving me the $1000 surgery and whatever radiation would have cost me or worse euthanasia, if he were to have no quality of life any more. I will have Sug for a while longer, thank goodness, at a financial rate I can afford for now and hopefully can continue to afford for the rest of his life. So, second guessing a doctor isn't always a bad thing and sometimes still workable if the lesser extreme doesn't work. Sometimes, even in medicine, you just can't use the big hammer before you try using the little hammer, which sometimes works well. Except with migraines, which one will try almost anything to get relief.
This describes other problems with alternative ‘meds’.
If a doctor can give a reasonable reason as to why they think their way is better, then we should listen to what they have to say, but jumping right to surgery isn't always the best plan, esp if there is a reasonable alternative (not talking about alternative medicines), like there was in Suga'Ray's case. Sometimes the less extreme works and sometimes it doesn't, but it still behoves us to ask questions before jumping to expensive extreme measures. I think we need to think about everything we put in and do to our bodies, even with modern medicine. I think it's reasonable to even questions the use of Botox, even though it's part of modern medicine (cosmetic surgery). What thinking person would ingest botulism (Clostridium botulinum to be exact, an acute toxin) or any other known toxin? Yet, they put it under their skin to remover wrinkles. Makes no sense to me and makes me wonder if Botox is short for [bo]tulinum [tox]in and the women who use it aren't thinking or are just plain uneducated. Luckily, despite or in spite of FDA approval http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin#Cosmetic (why I'm not sure) and doctors who agree to do the procedure, no one has yet died from it that I've read and yet, you say we shouldn't second guess doctors or the FDA? Sorry, but when I think about botox, I have to laugh about not second guessing doctors. I bet, if I went into my doctor and told her I want to get rid of the lines on my forehead, she'd probably suggest botox. Sorry, but I'm not that anxious to put a highly toxic substance, which causes food poisoning, under my skin just to get rid of my squint mark or worry lines on my forehead OR even use it to rid myself of migraines. I would strongly question her if she suggested it for my migraines and I'm not making this crap up: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/botox/MY00078 The Mayo Clinic? Seriously? Willow Bark or Botulism? Humm... Common Mckenzie, you can't be serious that you wouldn't question a dr, and even the FDA's approval, who wants to try botulism to help one suffering from migraines?! I don't mean to laugh, but surely you would question such a dr and even the Mayo Clinic on this one. Alleged medical uses of botulism, not limited to cosmetics, some of which are found on the Mayo Clinic link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin#Medical_and_cosmetic_uses , which can cause side effects, not limited to "weight loss by increasing the gastric emptying time". It's also a neurotoxin, besides botulism: drugs dot com/cdi/botox.html Oh and correction, at least according to Wiki (yes, not a medical source, but still, you'd have to be an idiot not to think death possible)- it apparently has caused some deaths. Sounds as bad as doctors once recommending patients to take up smoking for their asthma, which some did in the past. You seriously can't mean it when you say we cannot second guess our doctors, even with modern medicine. Sorry, but IF any doctor recommended Botox for my migraines, I'd be out of there in a heartbeat and seeking a second opinion! No way in hell am I using food poisoning to treat my headaches or remove my wrinkles!Mriana this whole long paragraph is an example why its problematic for patients to question everything that a doctor or any professional does. Just because something doesn't seem right on the surface doesn't mean there isn't a perfectly good rationale behind it. I spend a great deal of time answering questions and educating my patients I have an extensive self written and published web site that I provide to help my patients understand why we do certain things and how they can better take care of themselves but when it comes right down to it we don't have the time to give our patients a medical degree. You wouldn't expect your architect to discuss load bearing with you before he designs your house. It would be equally impractical for your physician to explain in exquisite detail the pathophysiology of every disease and the pharmacology of every treatment. Getting back to your example yes botox is botulinum toxin. This is no secret and never has been despite your implication. When you get botulism from tainted food its very different than what your doctor is doing when they give you a botox injection. When you develop botulism the clostridium botulinum spores in the persons body release botulinum toxin into the blood stream. It then travels through the entire body to nerve endings everywhere and block nerve signals leading to generalized paralysis. When a doctor injects botox they are injecting a very small amount of botulinum toxin directly at the site where they want to block a specific nerve. The dose is very small and usually can not travel to other sites to cause generalized paralysis. As with any treatment there is always the rare chance of an unintended side effect but that's true of everything in life not just medical treatments. Botox is a very logical approach to a number of problems. Wrinkles get better because the muscles under the skin that wrinkle the skin become paralyzed. Headaches may improve if the scalp muscles are similarly paralyzed, and other conditions like dystonias may also respond very dramatically to this treatment. I myself have a condition called spasmodic dysphonia and have received botox injection in my vocal cords periodically for 25 years with complete resolution of my symptoms. You can do all the research you like but if you dont have the education to understand the subject matter and it leads to incorrect conclusions as you did in the case of botox then you are doing yourself a disservice. At some point you need to find a health care professional you trust or your research will lead you to bad decisions. You would never design your own bridge after a little internet research. You wouldn't consider representing yourself in court after reading a few law books, and although I am all for patients asking me questions I dont know what makes people think that a quick Google search makes them qualified to argue or contest the treatments their doctor recommends. I think there is a fine line between asking intelligent questions and being confrontational with a professional. Unfortunately the internet has given people an unjustified sense of confidence in their medical knowledge that seems to be causing more people to step over that line leading to mistrust and counterproductive confrontations with their health care providers.
Still seems as bad as medicine in the 1800’s (would you use chloroform to sedate a patient in surgery today? I suspect not) and I suspect, in the 22 or 23 century we’ll look back on medicine in the late 20th and early 21st century and like Bones, say, “Mediaevalism here” and “My God, is this the Dark Ages?” We haven’t even gotten past drilling holes in people’s heads to relieve pressure on the brain, esp in cases of brain injuries (not saying it’s wrong or right, because it’s all we have for now, but it is still quite primitive medicine, IMO). The same thing you all are saying about previous centuries’ medicine, will probably be said of today’s medicine in the future. This doesn’t mean today’s medicine is good or bad, it’s just saying tomorrow we may place today’s medicine in the same category as yesterday’s medicine.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all, given communicators/cell phones, PADDS/IPads, food dispensers/microwaves, etc I do believe we are still in the Dark Ages of medicine and still have a long ways to go, despite improvements, esp and including childbirth (My younger son was born in 1991 and no less then 30 or 40 years prior, we both had a greater chance of dying from H.E.L.L.P. Syndrome, than we did in the 1990s). It is quite possible that Botox will be yesterday’s medicine, just as Willow Bark and chloroform are. Without questioning, I don’t think we would have made the progress in medicine that we have today and I think we should always continue to question, because (Science Fiction aside) I think we can do better than subject ourselves to Botox, chemo (a poison also), radiation (a known cause of cancer), and invasive surgery (which we’ve made some progress with). However, I do thank the doctors for chopping off my mother’s breast (just one) and giving her radiation to treat her stage 3 breast cancer earlier this century, thereby allowing her to live 14 years and beyond, thus surviving cancer, as well as treating her Grave’s Disease in the 70s, with radioactive iodine, but I do think we can do better than these techniques… eventually, esp if we don’t stop questioning.
So the questions aren’t so much concerning the poisons we allow drs to put into our bodies as much as it is, “Isn’t there anything better yet? Isn’t there new science on this yet? Why is our medicine still primitive in some respects?” IF we don’t ask such questions and push medical science to do better, then we may be in the Dark Ages still in the next century and, IMO, Botox and chemo isn’t much better than Willow Bark and chloroform, just a different century, but unfortunately, it’s all we have for now, just as the medicine of yesterday is being criticized today- it was all they had and knew also, which at the time was neither good or bad either, but people still questioned it and if they had not, I don’t think we have gotten as far as we have today, but what we have today could be improved greatly, I think. Botox, chemo, radiation, and alike should not be the end all and be all of medicine and it doesn’t hurt to keep a doctor on his toes in an effort to keep up with science. Some doctors do get lazy and don’t keep up with new findings.
Not only that, many a woman with a lump in her breast, has died because of a doctor telling her something similar to, “There, there. Let me worry about that lump, because I know what is best for you.” Any time a doctor takes on such attitudes, it’s time to get a second opinion, if not a different doctor.
You wouldn’t expect your architect to discuss load bearing with you before he designs your house.My grandfather, uncle, and others were carpenters, electricians, etc, who taught me a few things about building a house, so yes, I would, esp if I thought it was wrong. I have even been told by some carpenters, I see things that most other people do not see.
Mriana EVERYTHING we have is more “primitive” than what the future will bring and more advanced than what the past had available. That’s true of phones, TV’s, computers, farming techniques, building techniques , materials science, and medicine as well as nearly every other human endeavor. I’m not really sure what your point is. You’re frustrated because tomorrow isn’t here today? Your frustrated because you think medical science is sitting on its laurels and has gotten lazy? If thats the case there are tens of thousands of researchers who would argue strongly with you on that point. Your showing a lack of understanding of the complexity of the problems involved in medicine and the incredible advances that have been made. I really don’t get your point.
Mriana EVERYTHING we have is more "primitive" than what the future will bring and more advanced than what the past had available. That's true of phones, TV's, computers, farming techniques, building techniques , materials science, and medicine as well as nearly every other human endeavor. I'm not really sure what your point is. You're frustrated because tomorrow isn't here today? Your frustrated because you think medical science is sitting on its laurels and has gotten lazy? If thats the case there are tens of thousands of researchers who would argue strongly with you on that point. I really don't get your point.Yes and no. It just seems to me, that too many people here discredit folk/alternative medicine, when much of past medicine helped to get us to where we are today. Not only that, in some cases, such as aspirin, we are still using some of those things, mostly in synthetic form and wouldn't dare trust anyone, in a state of an emergency, with no access to modern medicine, concerning willow bark tea. I posed the same question to my older son, who incidentally graduated recently from a massage therapy school, and his answers was quite different those here. Not only that, you indirectly criticised the Mayo Clinic link I use, calling it misinformation. Funny. I thought the Mayo Clinic was a reliable source. I'll be sure not to do any research and let my doctor do all the thinking for me, as she worries about potential cancer for me, without questioning her about it or even potential improvements in modern medicine. Yeah. If no one thought outside the box, then I seriously doubt humans would have survived this long or made this many advancements or even survived living in the wilderness of the Plymouth or even 19th century western territories of the U.S. if doctors think outside the box and didn't even try some of the Indian medicine, which in some cases, also contributed to modern medicine. It's not that ALL "folk remedies" are necessarily bad, but many of us just don't know how make and use it any more, due to more advance technology in making synthetic forms of it and even in the past, most common folks didn't know how to make it. We left that to doctors, mid-wives, and whatever the name was for ancient pharmacists, even in Shakespeare's day. Ironically, my grandmother, who lived in an area they now often air-vac patients to the city, due to being so far out from civilization, grew aloe vera and quite often used it my wounds as well as my step cousin who got cut on bared wire (IMO, needing stitches due to how deep it was), when I was a child staying with her during the summer, with some amazing results. However, when my younger son got a cut on his knee so deep you could see those white deals (much like my step cousin), for which the name slips my mind, I ran him to the ER for treatment and stitches, not used aloe vera, but we also live in the city, with no need to use such things, BUT if it or similar had happened in the area my grandmother lived, which is still far away from the nearest hospital and medical facility (yes, such places still exist) and I had access to aloe vera or alike, I wouldn't be beyond using such a thing in a medical emergency until I could him to a medical facility. Notice, I said, until I could get him to a medical facility. Unlike my grandmother and other adults I grew up with, I wouldn't leave it to just the aloe vera to do it's thing. I would get the person to a medical facility too, informing the doctor of how I treated before we arrived or before an air-vac got there. Aloe vera, on wounds, is a very harmless folk remedy and actually not bad "in a pinch", esp if one was taught, like I was, how to put it on wounds, but I wouldn't recommend it as the sole treatment of a wound needing stitches (as in what happened with my step cousin) by an actual doctor. He did alright though, without stitches or a real doctor, but it's not something I would do my children or grandchildren with such a wound. There is my frustration and it seems to me, few people ever lived in an area where, to this day, people are often air-vac to the nearest medical facility approximately 200 miles away. I often spent my summer in such a place, right here in MO, and that place is still just sparsely populated and as bad medical wise, thus, I have often pondered if I would try to use some of the stuff my grandmother and great grandmother taught me, if faced in such a situation, until modern medicine arrived to help. The answer is both yes and no, depending if I had a high level of confidence, such as with aloe vera (yes) or a low level in the case of willow bark (no, maybe). Aloe vera on a wound won't hurt you or interfere with modern meds, but getting willow bark wrong (and no you can't confuse it with water hemlock, unless you're a complete moron) could, as well as interfere with modern meds. Even so, I do not believe all "folk remedies" are necessarily bad, esp those like aloe vera, but I would not use it as my only Tx, esp when medical treatment is warranted. However, by the time they got my cousin to the nearest medical facility (4-5 hours away, via car at 55-60 mph), it could have very well been too late for stitches and my grandmother felt aloe vera was the best option for my step cousin's gaping long wound on his leg from bared wire. Aloe vera, until you can get to a medical facility miles away, isn't going to harm you one bit and might potentially help, esp if you clean the wound before applying it. So, maybe, instead of foo-fooing ALL such remedies, it might not hurt to think outside the box and consider potential exceptions, such as that I mentioned concerning my step-cousin, which actually still exist today. As I said, yesterday and today's medicine is neither good nor bad, but it is what we have/had at this/the time and sometimes, yesterday's "folk medicine" is still all we have at the time even in the late 20th century and today. Then again, maybe it's all in what we grew up with that we base our choices today, but personally, if I'm far away from a medical facility and need medical treatment, depending on the seriousness, I would at least consider (not necessarily accept it, keeping an open-mind) a folk remedy until I got to the nearest medical facility. I certainly wouldn't allow such a deep wound to get infected and continue bleeding profusely, that is for sure, and if I knew something about the suggested folk remedy, I wouldn't close my mind to it, but then again, I grew up with BOTH folk medicine and modern medicine. I feel I've had and do have the best of both worlds (yesterday and today). Therein lies my frustration with what some are saying here, closing their minds to possible situations in which a folk remedy might be all you have, in which to survive or deal with a medical situation, until you get to a modern medical facility. I'm grateful the elders in my family accepted both and taught me some things about folk medicine, because it could come in handy. BTW, it was pure aloe vera, directly from the plant, none of this bottled stuff some see today in stores.
Mriana I hung in here hoping I could bring some logic to this discussion but I don’t see that as a possibility anymore. I have answered your points previously in my responses and you keep writing as though you haven’t read anything I’ve written or have read only what you want to. I don’t think I have anything more to add here.
So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical? Interesting.
So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical? Interesting.He's not asking you to agree with him, he's asking you to read and think about his responses. I have to agree with him, it doesn't seem like you have done that. Instead you have leapt from anecdote to gross misunderstanding. It is clear from your responses that you understand little about medicine or human biological processes. I'm sure this conversation has to be just as frustrating to you, as it is to him, and to me....and I am just reading.
…and yes, they still use chloroform for sedation in some minor medical procedures. It is a purer form and can be more tightly titrated than it could be in the past.
So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical? Interesting.Of course not Mriana. Like Asanta said it just seems like you either haven't read my posts or just don't care to address my points even though I have gone to great pains to address each of yours. McKenzie said the same in his last post. If we don't address and build on each others points then the thread goes no where
Mriana, it’s like the Borg. Resistance is futile!
It’s like one mind. 