It's been said that the wealthy (individuals and corporations) privatize their profits and socialize their losses. I think that's true. A different kind of communism, called corruption. LoisYes a type of corruption no doubt. But it's a corruption that's allowed to fester in the mainly legal confines of political/economic structure. It doesn't take a sociopath or any pathology to take advantage of this. It's legalized corruption. It takes intelligence, money, cunning, charisma, a little luck, sometimes inheritance, sometimes connections. Anybody who is smart enough to game that legal political/economic system and has the drive to do it is no fool. We don't look at the gamers of this system and decide what's wrong with them. There's nothing wrong. This is how it has always been. We look at the system and change it. That attitude is part of the problem. This idea that if it is legal, and you do it, you're no fool. Besides ignoring a sense of morality, it ignores that the people who make the laws are the ones we are talking about. Look at the revolving door of politicians and "consultants" to major corporations. Not to mention how easy it is to get around the rules about investing in things that they are making laws about. And so what if this is "how it's always been". Should peasants have said that about the Kings? I'm sure many of them did. Lucky for you enough of them said they had enough with that and made the world you now live in.
... This idea that if it is legal, and you do it, you're no fool. Besides ignoring a sense of morality, it ignores that the people who make the laws are the ones we are talking about. Look at the revolving door of politicians and "consultants" to major corporations. Not to mention how easy it is to get around the rules about investing in things that they are making laws about...You seem to be suggesting/implying, here, that 1) if enough of the general population see what people like the Koch brothers are doing, and recognize it as immoral, then, this may lead to the general population, potentially, doing something to hold them (Koch-bros-like-persons ) in check. And also, 2) you point out the problem of the KBLPs currently having pervasive control in political, legal and business organizations. I would add that KBLPs, to a large degree, have control of "the message", thru mass media such as Fox News, and thru politicians and other social leaders (e.g., some authors, some religious leaders, most radio talk show hosts) who advance their message. Thus much of the general population will not be inclined to view what KBLPs do as immoral, at all, but rather will hold what they do as a positive value. So it seems to me, that it is a very ingrained problem that is not readily amenable to change. But by the same token, it is a target rich environment, by which I mean the problem could be addressed on multiple fronts. I think the important question is on which front/s, if any, is there a good chance that something can effectively be done to hold the KBLPs in check or to diminish their power.
That attitude is part of the problem. This idea that if it is legal, and you do it, you're no fool. Besides ignoring a sense of morality, it ignores that the people who make the laws are the ones we are talking about. Look at the revolving door of politicians and "consultants" to major corporations. Not to mention how easy it is to get around the rules about investing in things that they are making laws about. And so what if this is "how it's always been". Should peasants have said that about the Kings? I'm sure many of them did. Lucky for you enough of them said they had enough with that and made the world you now live in.Lausten. Your just blathering now. You're falling into the argument trap. This is when a thread moves along and somewhere along the way someone's point(s) get challenged. Rather than looking openly at the counterpoint, the person begins putting up counter measures and the debate becomes less and less about substance and more and more about opposition for the sake of opposition. I think it is a safe bet that the vast majority of wealthy people are not sociopaths. Yeah, that's a safe bet. No matter what you emote. Now you want to argue against my point: "Anybody who is smart enough to game that legal political/economic system and has the drive to do it is no fool." This isn't my attitude Lausten. It is my observation. It is empirical fact. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it on face value. Just like I wouldn't criticize a lion for crouching down in the tall grass, taking advantage of the wind, and choosing a young, old or injured gazelle for it's prey.
....it ignores that the people who make the laws are the ones we are talking about. Look at the revolving door of politicians and "consultants" to major corporations.:lol: My points ignored that huhn? Anybody who is smart enough to game that legal political/economic system and has the drive to do it is no fool. We don’t look at the gamers of this system and decide what’s wrong with them. There’s nothing wrong. This is how it has always been. We look at the system and change it. Did you not understand this paragraph? I'm trying to keep it short and simple.
That you would compare what the Kochs are doing to a lion killing a gazelle just proves my point that you are an extreme moral relativist. Either you are not thinking about what you are saying, or you are, and you think it’s a might makes right world. I’m not blathering, I’m basing what I say on some basic human values of caring for others. Having drive and gaming the system is observed fact, but saying people who do it are foolish or not is an attitude.
There was a study done, trying to figure out the affect of European policies on Africa from 400 years ago. There were no GDP numbers, so he used the population of cities as a measure, assuming you need a decent level of societal organization to support large central cities.
He found basically two types of countries, ones where Europeans couldn’t live because of malaria or other factors, and ones where they settled, like South Africa. If they couldn’t live there, they just extracted the wealth from the country and left. If they could, they built infrastructure and created systems of support. The ones where the wealth was extracted are still the poorest countries and the ones with infrastructure are doing much better.
All of this was legal, it was “just how things were". Do you believe that all of those people had no thought that they were affecting these large populations for generations to come? Were these caring people who thought of Africans as fellow travelers on our trips around the Sun? Or were they sick bastards who could look at people and treat them like chattel? If there wasn’t something wrong with those people, then why has the world changed? Why are there now laws against treating foreign countries like that? Does everyone in the world get nicer and more benevolent at some slow and steady pace or do some people work for justice while others are exploiting and raping?
To quote the great philosopher, Rodney King: “People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? . . . Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it."
I think the important question is on which front/s, if any, is there a good chance that something can effectively be done to hold the KBLPs in check or to diminish their power.Of course there is Tim. It happened the last election cycle. They spent $x.xx per vote and got nothing for their money. That's huge. There's a long line of "Kochs". This hysteria about them is good...I like agitation/propaganda myself. But the Kochs, the GOP etc can do nothing to stop the rollout that has been taking place since...Lincoln(and Reconstruction)? FDR? LBJ? Obama? It is my firm belief that much of the hubbub and loud static, the amped up reactionary crap we witness from Kochs through to FOX News to "the guy" you work with down at the shop(so to speak) is just that! Reactionary Crap! Nothing is going to stop the rollout towards a more left leaning society. Towards Progressivism. This takes time. I know you know this. I'm speaking through you to other folks in this thread. Alot of time. 2 steps forward, 3 back, 3 steps forward, 1 back etc etc.... I'm starting to see people I would never have imagined 3-5 years ago talking about wealth disparity. I'm serious. That's what I pay attention to. And I live and work with 'Joe Sixpack" etc... This gross anomoly is not going to hold. The GOP have been trying to balance an information game while simultaneously trying to hold a handful of water in 2 cupped hands. Eventually the masses they have been placating(with wedge issue propaganda) to vote against their interests are going to get wise. Obama Care is going to be a good test of this. They are going to campaign against this. It might work, it might not. But if it works for them, and they repeal or change it drastically....then what? Then What? :lol: It's a slow process but then what? I think it won't work personally. I think it's too late. Obama Care and it's message have sunk in to enough people. Let those people realize what the GOP wants to replace it with.... :lol: That's the GOP's whole House Of Cards. It won't last. The title of this thread is "The Wealth Divide". The ObamaCare fight is the main arena for this ideological battle. The Main Arena. Obviously that's why the GOP have gone Ape Shit in trying to destroy it. ObamaCare is the next big chink in their Armor.
That you would compare what the Kochs are doing to a lion killing a gazelle just proves my point that you are an extreme moral relativist....Does everyone in the world get nicer and more benevolent at some slow and steady pace or do some people work for justice while others are exploiting and raping?I'm not interested in morals in a political arena. Never have been, never will. I can certainly say that morals would never come into play in any of my "reforms" were I to be King For A Day. This is an ideological War. I personally see no place for morals. My ideology is firmly based on morals. But I have learned that that is relative to other's morals. This world is definitely based on a "May the Best Morals Win!" type situation. The Freeing of Slaves in the US was brought about by much Moral Agitation. But when the Political Arena was opened to begin to address this(The Civil War), the process of actually freeing slaves politically/physically was not based on morals one iota. Not one iota. It was for military expedience mostly. The Swing States who had slaves were exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation-for political expediency. Why didn't Lincoln just appeal to Morals? Hmmn? Because it never would have worked. He mulled it over. He also would have avoided the Civil War and let the South keep their slaves if he could have found a happy medium. Obviously he changed his message slowly when it became apparent the North would win. Think about that.
I realize that it may be stimulating to argue about topics like moral relativism, and our evolutionary predispositions. But could it not also be stimulating (and definitely more goal directed) to come up with ideas that might actually have an impact on the influence of KBLP’s in the real world?
For just one isolated example: On the front of “control of the message”, (specifically addressing the tremendous political influence of talk radio hosts). Talk radio, primarily, I think, is supported by an audience of older people. This is unlikely to change. So trying to counter this by supporting the development of talk radio shows that provide an anti-KBLP message, is unlikely to bear much fruit. However, what if we ask: what mass media are younger people tending to pay most attention to? One answer might be they are primarily downloading and listening to music. Is there a way to vastly embed the truth about KBLPs in the music that is pervasively listened to?
That is just one thought that readily occurs to me, on just one aspect of one of the possible fronts for attacking the influence of KBLPs.
Another isolated thought: On the front of legal control in the political system: Ron Paul has just asserted his legal right to keep his donors anonymous. Is there something that can be done to change the law so that politicians ARE required to divulge their donors?
It is a sort of sickness to accumulate that much stuff.No it is not a sickness. Don't be ridiculous. What is the type of disorder? Do you have a name for it? Viewing it as some sort of sickness is a way of living with blinders on. It's a way of convincing yourself that you're ok and the Uber-wealthy are somehow defective. A neat little subconscious trade-off to make yourself feel better as you plainly see people living the Supreme Good Life and controlling your life for their gain. I would definitely say that this form of "blindness" is a more of a sickness...as long as we're throwing ideas around... Obsessive compulsive disorder. It's the same disorder that leads people to be hoarders and to engage in extremely risky behavior. And it IS named and recognized in the DSM as a disorder. Lois
Obsessive compulsive disorder. It's the same disorder that leads people to be hoarders and to engage in extremely risky behavior. And it IS named and recognized in the DSM as a disorder. LoisYou can't make that claim..on so many different levels. I'm past the name calling bit Lois. I guess it's cheeky. But it bores me.
I realize that it may be stimulating to argue about topics like moral relativism, and our evolutionary predispositions. But could it not also be stimulating (and definitely more goal directed) to come up with ideas that might actually have an impact on the influence of KBLP's in the real world?I addresses this to you in post #45.
... Nothing is going to stop the rollout towards a more left leaning society. Towards Progressivism. This takes time. I know you know this...I know that it takes time. But I believe that it will also take directed efforts to counter the pervasive influence and power of KBLPs. I don't share your optimism that a more progressive society will continue to, inevitably, emerge. This implies that we should just be patient and sit back and watch. That approach may result in waiting a long time indeed. And without activists, I think that progressive ideals would not have emerged to the extent that they have, to this point. Despite some progress, we also have seen the emergence of an increasingly entrenched and powerful anti-progressive faction.
I'm not interested in morals in a political arena. Never have been, never will. I can certainly say that morals would never come into play in any of my "reforms" were I to be King For A Day.Slavery is wrong and it always has been. Whomever has benefited from it has done so at the expense of many lives including those who inherit the messed up world created by their despicable actions. It appears normal, even healthy to those who are born into it, but if you can’t look back at it from your current place of freedom and realize their minds were altered to an unhealthy state by the system, then there is something wrong with you. I don’t know how you are defining “morals", but if you can’t see that the US Constitution is designed to keep immoral behavior in check, then you have some skewed vision of history. The Declaration of Independence has direct connections to the modern sense of ethics expressed by Hume and Locke. Of course political action often involves expediency, but as Lao Tzu said, “When virtue is lost, benevolence appears, when benevolence is lost right conduct appears, when right conduct is lost, expedience appears. Expediency is the mere shadow of right and truth; it is the beginning of disorder." You keep writing things like “think about that", as if you know the mind of Lincoln or understand the motivations of all the players from those who made the 3/5ths compromise all the way through the Jim Crow period. Those are difficult and strange issues that we are still dealing with. It’s really hard to have a conversation with someone who talks like they have it all sorted out. I admit I could be wrong, but I tell you what I base my opinions on. I would rather go down having lived a life of compassion and be wrong, than have your attitude.
Also TimB, internet news sites seem to be doing real good. I like watching The Young Turks myself.
They have exploded in growth and popularity. Same with Colbert, Mahr and Stewart. I’m sure there’s much more.
These outlets are having an effect.
Honestly looking at the other end of the spectrums…your Drudge Reports, Becks, Limbaughs, O’Reilly, I can’t think of the other guy…
uh, uh, the Conspiracy Type guy…it doesn’t matter. I see the people who regurgitate there fodder.
I view them and their audiences as nominal players compared to the Progressive ones.
Simple reason…the progressive ones are funny and appeal to youth.
Appealing to youth is The Keystone.
It’s that simple TimB. The rollout is in effect.
You guys are getting hysterical over the reaction. You should all be rejoicing. It’s a slow process.
It’s working.
Again, you guys are focusing on the reactionary measures these fools are trying to put in place to counter the inevitable.
... but I tell you what I base my opinions on. I would rather go down having lived a life of compassion and be wrong, than have your attitude.You don't know my attitude. Don't pretend to know my attitude. You're getting a little melodramatic for my tastes. Go soapbox someplace else.
I realize that it may be stimulating to argue about topics like moral relativism, and our evolutionary predispositions. But could it not also be stimulating (and definitely more goal directed) to come up with ideas that might actually have an impact on the influence of KBLP's in the real world?I think I've said about all I can to VYAZMA. I applaud your effort TimB, but I don't know that I have anything new to add. How to organize has not changed that much over the centuries, just new tools. Music is certainly a good tool, and I support my local folk singer, but not sure what else I can do there. Writing your congressman has always seemed futile to me, but I do it anyway. We have Al Franken here, so I feel good about that. Also, just doing good things, acting locally, has an impact. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I don't share your optimism that a more progressive society will continue to, inevitably, emerge. This implies that we should just be patient and sit back and watch. That approach may result in waiting a long time indeed.I don't know what to tell you. It takes time. I don't know how you are getting the idea that I am implying that we should sit back and wait. I said the measures that are in place and new measures take time. I stand out in the cold and picket for workers rights. I sit one on one with people I think I can change and rationally try to explain the ideas behind progressive politics. I turn news channels off in rooms and turn others on. I have gone on door to door petition drives for recycling efforts, political elections etc. I am one of the most vocal persons at Union Meetings(of which I have never missed one.) and get in real heated arguments therein. I am a Union Steward at my place of employment. Everybody does their part. The social dynamics of the US are changing. This is inevitably going to lead to a more left leaning polity.
... but I tell you what I base my opinions on. I would rather go down having lived a life of compassion and be wrong, than have your attitude.You don't know my attitude. Don't pretend to know my attitude. You're getting a little melodramatic for my tastes. Go soapbox someplace else. As Bono said during a concert when he was preaching about what was happening in the former Yugoslavia, "Am I bugging you? Sorry if I'm bugging." Sarcastically of course. Correction, he was talking about oppression in general and the failure of the West to deal with South Africa Bono on a soapbox]
I think I've said about all I can to VYAZMA.WTF have you said? WTF have you actually said here?
I realize that it may be stimulating to argue about topics like moral relativism, and our evolutionary predispositions. But could it not also be stimulating (and definitely more goal directed) to come up with ideas that might actually have an impact on the influence of KBLP's in the real world?I addresses this to you in post #45. I do share your optimism that the "Right" (IMO, they would be more accurately called the "Wrong") has overreached in their unending, ubiquitous, irrational, prevaricating attacks on Obamacare. It is amazing that in spite of their efforts Obamacare currently appears to be working as well as it is. But even though I believe that Obamacare is the best solution that was possible, considering the opposition, it is a complex, and imperfect, effort at addressing an extraordinarily difficult issue, that will have problems (as would have any possible solution). The KBLP supporters will continue to seize on any problems that occur, and they have the advantage of only needing to undermine Obamacare, while not having to try to develop any genuine, functional alternative solutions. So the success of Obamacare, while I am optimistic, is not assured. And even if it is ultimately, successful, I don't believe that its success alone will usher in a new era of progressivism. And it is clear to me that the development of Obamacare, itself, would never have occurred, were it not for massive efforts of progressive activists. Even the election of Obama, himself, would not have been possible without the massive efforts of grass roots activists.