Sorry about that Lausten. I fixed the formatting and corrected the typo.
I found a great quote, attributed to Christopher Hitchens.
Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I found a great quote, attributed to Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens' Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.And despite visiting this forum earlier today, Yohe has offered nothing to back his outlandish comments. Typical.
I am fond of facts because they are true even if you don’t believe them. I have seen no facts to verify the Jesus of the Bible, that dinosaurs still live to day or little green men are visiting us. If this supposed Jesus would get out of his tomb and talk to us, if a dinosaur came walking out of the woods, or the little green men landed in my back yard, you would get my attention BIG TIME, but until then not so much.
I am fond of facts because they are true even if you don't believe them. I have seen no facts to verify the Jesus of the Bible, that dinosaurs still live to day or little green men are visiting us. If this supposed Jesus would get out of his tomb and talk to us, if a dinosaur came walking out of the woods, or the little green men landed in my back yard, you would get my attention BIG TIME, but until then not so much.This was probably mentioned earlier, but I think most biblical scholars (the real ones, like Bart Ehrman) agree there was a person called Jesus (Joshua actually). And they agree on a few things he actually said, versus words others put in his mouth, and that those things were good, ethical, etc. None of that of course has anything to do with this historical person being the son of god, the messiah, etc. What's more interesting though, and this is in the book I mentioned by Hugh Schonfield, is that Jesus, like many other jewish men of his time, may have thought he himself was the Messiah. And so he spoke and acted accordingly. Nothing mischievous going on, just a religious guy thinking he was The One. But again, even that has nothing to do with actually Being the son of god, etc.
I can’t find the the list, because there is so much crap about this topic of historical consensus, but it’s somewhere around 7 or 8 useless details. The quotes from the Bible that are agreed to be authentic are not the key ones, like “render unto Caesar” or “why have you forsaken me”. Crucifixion is even suspect, Pilate is suspect, but I think the consensus is something like “arrested or killed by the State”. Anyway, it’s nothing on the order of legitimating a religion, or even being able to determine an agenda or plan by the guy.
Okay, let me try to get this thread back on track, since I happen to come across this piece I’d posted at my CC blog a couple years back.
Ironically, the start of the essay was a comment over here at CFI.
It’s funny I used to feel really squeamish about writing and sharing stuff like this. But, with every additional year of actively engaging the right-wing crowd
their hollowness becomes more apparent.
(at least the one’s on the internet - in real life the right wingers I know are of a different breed, but then I’m fortunate enough to live in rural Colorado.)
But then the dialogue has been a learning process for me, whereas it seems like folks such as Anthony Watts, Mc/Mc’s, Rep Lamar Smith], J.Steele, V., M., and the like seem confined to spinning around in their delusional bubble. Nothing new, nothing ever learned, simply an emotional hatred of all things they decided to perceive as “left”.
Yeah, some of them are doing great, but it won’t last.
And me, what the hell am I doing? Reaching out for the few for whom it may make a difference. I imagine the inevitable future heading our way.
Increasing disruptions, until a collapse of the global system we’ve come to depend on. Real collapse such as ports and cities and the infrastructure that keeps global communication system alive, damaged beyond repair.
Not everywhere at the same time. More like acid blotches here and there until they run together. But, when the grocery stores and gas stations no longer getting stocked,
all hell will break out for a short time. Most all of us who are around for those days (me included) won’t get through it. But, some where, some will.
A few here and there who’ve already divorced themselves from our society and who got lucky in the climate change roulette game, remember, after timing, its location, location, location.
During the increasing turmoil as the reality what we have done soaks in current belief systems will be put to the test.
After all, it will be clear to many that they have directly helped and supported the means of our own self destruction.
Still,
people will always need some sort of spiritual sustenance. I’m simply share my own, which I know is in more harmony with this physical planet we were born out of
and will die back into, than any of those petty tribal Holy Books of Abraham’s spawn.
THURSDAY, MARCH 26, 2015 You, me, we don’t need a scriptural “God" - Knowing Evolution Is Enough! This started as a comment at CenterForInquiry Forum but it ballooned into an essay and since it turned into a pretty fair presentation of my thoughts on this topic, I figure I'd post it over here. _____________________________________ Back to the original thought: “When circumstances are terrible, certainly you will suspend your atheism." Why? For what purpose? Some put all this stock in Holy Books and people’s interpretations of those books along with the images we weave in our minds, created out of the desires in our hearts. But that’s your/their god, a security blanket, and we all need our security blankets, I’m not knocking that. It’s the arrogance and defensive super-natural Faith folks imbibe it with, (exemplified in that bold boast at the start of this essay), that’s over the top. There are some who have gone through personal struggles and rebirths, folks who understand Jesus’s Passion for what it is, a guide (support and inspiration) for our own personal spiritual journeys - with it’s various personal trials and tribulations, for aid and support in transitioning through our own lives, from dependent, self-centered, selfish child, into balanced self sufficient adulthood and eventually beyond to wise person and adept societal matriarch or patriarch (metaphorically speaking) - according to each circumstance. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Once one’s spiritual foundation grows beyond our mental images of God and Holy Stories (the Shadow Plays that help us glimpse a greater awareness) that awe gets transferred to the reality of our Mother Earth, the organism that created this world and each of us - and a totally different, much more solid, dare I say mature, type of spiritual foundation is formed. Rooted in a deep understanding of Evolution's Pageant and its creation of ever more complex building blocks that drove yet more complexity. The evolution of atomic particles and elements, gravity and star formation, Ah, the stars, factories creating one element after another, up to Iron. Then the wonder of exploding giant stars (Super Novas) that created all the heavier elements in a flash. Thus making future complex worlds possible. Fascinating. Gravity and solar system formation and the wonder of our planet’s development. Then that early addition of the moon, by way of a furious collision! Don't that beat all in the Holy Books? The early moon's orbit was much closer to Earth with constant gravitational churning… friction and motion forced onto a cooling planet (think birth of tectonics) Early proto continents being rhythmically hammered by massive tidal waves the likes of which we can’t imagine. The slow evolution of early life, as basic biological systems were "experimented" with, developed, discarded, changed, refined always increasing an internal store of information, and always striving for ever more complexity. But it’s not just life’s development. If you want to appreciate Creation you also have to understand that most of today’s minerals evolved out of an intimate duet with life forces. We’ve also learned that the very face of our planet and it’s geologic structures are also creations of life forces during their intimate dance with geologic forces. It’s incomprehensibly amazing and I’m an intimate part of (and witness to) that flow of time and ceaseless learning and yearning. I feel like I’m one of Creation’s appointed witnesses, striving to record all I can as I traverse my few years on this amazing planet. To spiritually grasp the amazing billions year long drive of life towards ever more awareness and manipulatory abilities. To literally, spiritually, viscerally know that I am a part of it - that beat’s hell and heaven out of any manmade book and thoughts anyone can wave at me. My solidity is the ground under my feet and my reassurance is the blood coursing through my body that contains star dust along with the vestiges of life’s triumphs reaching back to the beginnings of this pageant call Earth. To even partially appreciate Creation’s and life’s unquenchable quest to view itself and understand itself, to grasp that humanity is one of it’s most extraordinary summit stories and I’m one of them. Possessing the profoundest gift of being aware of my part in this passion play of creation, quite beyond human vanities. The knowledge that I’ll be gone pretty soon, is met with the knowledge that I will remain and be absorbed back into the pageant as it moves forward. All I need is knowing I’ve been blessed with a life well lived as witness to the wonders of Creation and humanity and my own short existence. No scriptural storytelling comes close to offering that sort of comfort and security. Bottomline: No scripture, with it’s smoke and mirrors imagery (and human conflict), can come close to offering the solidity of purpose (and peace with the thought of death) that a deep evolutionary awareness provides ! http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2015/03/plz-no-god-evolution-enough.html
Okay, let me try to get this thread back on trackGood luck with that. I'll try not to contribute to the tangent so much. I agree with your bottom line, but it takes a high degree of maintenance to pass it along. Ultimately, the rational mindset is stronger, but it's always easy to replace the foundational belief with a spiritual one. That is, if I say "there are universal laws that are consistent throughout time and they have no mind behind them", then our task is to discover them. But if I say, "there is a secret power behind those laws", then our task is to discover that power, and it's got that extra benefit of giving us some power, and if you convince enough of the right people of it, you can get control. I hope you're right, but I wonder if the cosmological history will survive the de-population and fragmentation.
Okay, let me try to get this thread back on trackGood luck with that. I'll try not to contribute to the tangent so much. .Don't worry about it I'm known to drift of into tangents myself. In someways, all this is simple me reworking arguments and its flaws. Took it to another level today, though I stayed away from the Passion angle. Will have to start a new thread for that one.
For comparison, what do you think of the mythic angle? Using stories to express the meaning. Or, similar lines, I’m seeing Democrats finally starting to realize that they need to express values, and values get expressed through anecdote, not data.
I’m all for it. Gotta reach the people on a visceral level.
That’s why I’m so into the evolutionary story of our Earth, there’s a pageant in there that beats all books the human mind can conjured up.
And it’s fact based.
That billions of years old pageant of creation offers a direct connection between us and the flow of Creation past as well as future.
Sure beat the thought of “heaven” (which as described sounds like hell to me.) or “hell.”
For me it’s done a wonderful job of filling that spiritual need most people have, yet keep’n it real.
May sound like from left field but I got an analogy -
Sort of like the difference in confidence level one achieves between
completing an old Red Cross first aid class and/or completing a full EMT course.
WOW - the spam filter is getting really weird around here.
This time it refused to allow me to quote Lausten - said it was spam.
Were it, V. I could understand it, but Lausten. That’s not fair man. 
I was sooo tempted to use blue.
But I’m a good citizen. 
WOW - the spam filter is getting really weird around here. This time it refused to allow me to quote Lausten - said it was spam. Were it, V. I could understand it, but Lausten. That's not fair man. ;-P I was sooo tempted to use blue. But I'm a good citizen. :cheese:I thought it was only happening to me. I don’t believe the spam. We are being censored. Some days I cannot answer any posts at all.
WOW - the spam filter is getting really weird around here. This time it refused to allow me to quote Lausten - said it was spam. Were it, V. I could understand it, but Lausten. That's not fair man. ;-P I was sooo tempted to use blue. But I'm a good citizen. :cheese:I thought it was only happening to me. I don’t believe the spam. We are being censored. Some days I cannot answer any posts at all. Nobody is being censored, apart from folks who have been banned. If you can't post, it's either a screwup with the system somewhere or the spam filter. The website software and the spam filter are aged and never have worked perfectly. The filter was installed by the developers at CFI and is a black-box. I have literally no clue how it works.
Nobody is being censored, apart from folks who have been banned. If you can't post, it's either a screwup with the system somewhere or the spam filter. The website software and the spam filter are aged and never have worked perfectly. The filter was installed by the developers at CFI and is a black-box. I have literally no clue how it works.Thanks doug. I imagine the spam filter has crept into your nightmares a few times.
I imagine the spam filter has crept into your nightmares a few times.Candidly, it's annoying at times, but I do recall the delta between before it was installed and after. We went from several spam posts a day to virtually none.
Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.You know this how? Because it's "real". You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you've learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed. You do realize that 1.6 billion followers of Islam say the same thing amout Allah and Mohammad. They're "real", as in really.
Jesus, he is one of my heroes. But of course you are talking about the Jesus of Paul and John. I am talking about the real Jesus. And Jesus did have a driving agenda and it was about gaining power. And it was his way of going after that power that showed his genius.You know this how? Because it's "real". You know, real, as in really. You find the real one by picking out some evidence that agrees with things you've learned in modern schools, based on modern philosophy, then ignoring the other 99% of the evidence of what Jesus was and how the legends and myths developed. You do realize that 1.6 billion followers of Islam say the same thing amout Allah and Mohammad. They're "real", as in really. I do. I don't know about Mike. I'm not sure what reality is to him.