I say rid ourselves of them. The various psychopaths, sociopaths, and the like. We're simply draining our resources and wasting our time keeping them in their cages. Just execute them and be done with it.And that makes you better than other apes how? That makes you better than the psychopaths and sociopaths how? It makes you better than religious fanatics who kill how? Excellent points, Mriana. There is no sense in capital punishment. It is barbaric and no government can never put it into practice fairly. Too many (one is too many) innocent people are put to death; we know black people are more likely to receive a death sentence than white people. Dead is dead and there can be no appeal. No government should have the right to kill people in cold blood, no matter what their crime. If we can't figure out a way to handle crime and criminals in this country without killing people we should hang our heads in shame. It is not that complicated. We don't need crazed people operating our prisons and their occupants. On a practical level, as we've learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison. I have yet to hear one intelligent reason for any country to have capital punishment. Most Western countries have banned it. The US is the last barbaric holdout in the West and it is a travesty. I agree and I've been questioning capital punishment since my teens, which has been for a long time. Even then, I could not see the difference between the murderer and the one pulling the handle to kill the murderer. They seemed one and the same to me, no better than the other, even when I was a teenager, and cannot fathom thinking of it differently. My mind cannot picture it differently. They still seem one and the same, no better than the other, both were murderers then and they still are, in my view.
I'm basically against capital punishment. How to you correct the "mistakes" made in the criminal justice system of the an innocent person has been executed? As far as prison costs - decriminalize drugs as they did booze and the prision populations its costs as well as law enforcement costs and the murder rate will drop greatly.Exactly! I do not advocate drug use, but decriminalizing drugs would be a very good start to decreasing the criminal population. My younger son, IMO, does not need to be in prison, despite the fact he stole money and forged a check to get money for drugs. He need treatment, which the law enforcers insist he'll get while in prison. I question that, but we'll see what happens. The fact remains, that people who abuse drugs need treatment, just as alcoholics do. Not 2, 4, 5 or 7 years in prison. What makes me angry, is there is a video of this dude in CA who committed murder. He received 4 years for murder, while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs. What is up with that? Isn't murder worse than stealing and/or forgery? All three crimes are worse than blasphemy, adultery, apostasy, etc, that is for sure, but I think our society has it all wrong to punish an addict worse than a murderer, instead of giving the addict treatment and punishing the murderer. It would be more cost effective to give an addict treatment than to incarcerate them. That's not even talking about the mistake of killing an innocent person, which has happened more than once, including in more recent years.I think one of the challenges our society faces is that many (most?) people have a hard time believing that people aren't in control of, and thereby responsible for their own actions at ALL times. 'You stole to support your drug habit? Well, that's your problem. You should have just stopped using drugs, then you wouldn't have had to steal. Since you didn't now you get to pay the consequences.' Just to be clear I agree with you and find the discrepancy between punishment and crime completely unreasonable. Take care, Derek
I think one of the challenges our society faces is that many (most?) people have a hard time believing that people aren't in control of, and thereby responsible for their own actions at ALL times. 'You stole to support your drug habit? Well, that's your problem. You should have just stopped using drugs, then you wouldn't have had to steal. Since you didn't now you get to pay the consequences.' Just to be clear I agree with you and find the discrepancy between punishment and crime completely unreasonable. Take care, DerekI agree. People think that, despite addiction, those addicted to a drug can just put it down and quit. As smoker who has made many attempts to quit and am still trying, I can say it is not that easy to put down said drug or drugs in my son's case. The only difference between my habit and his, is mine is legal, I won't lose my job for smoking (as long as I smoke outside or at home that is), and I can find alternate legal forms of it too- such as an e-cig, a patch, gum, etc. I don't have to smoke tobacco to get the nicotine I crave and climb the walls when I'm without it or go steal money to get it or even get arrested for being in possession of nicotine, in any form. My habit is legal, but I am not bound to tobacco as my only source of the drug, which is the worst form of the drug, and I can withdraw gradually with these other forms. My younger son's addiction is not only illegal, but there is very little alternative to fight withdrawals and rehab is just as much of a merry-go-round, if not arrested first, as quitting tobacco is, as well as more costly- thousands of dollars for rehab, legal cost if arrested, tax payer burden if incarcerated etc v maybe hundreds, overtime, for help quitting tobacco and maybe a little extra if one has depression and/or anxiety or alike, which the individual and maybe insurance pays (in the case of depression etc, at least) pays, not the tax payers. So yes, everyone shells out money to incarcerate drug addicts too, who are really not much different than smokers and alcoholics when you get down to it and the habits are just as deadly and/or risky physically, esp if the criminal aspects are removed. Alcoholism, most people who are alcoholics have issues keeping a job, but unless they drink and drive, they usually get treatment outside of prison, without tax payers having to pay for it. While I don't approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them. I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.
while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.:question: 7 years for that.is.effing.outrageous. I've seen people get less time, for much worse, in Maryland.
While I don't approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them. I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.Yes, and most LEO's, health care providers agree that it's a medical problem foremost. At this point, I accept that it's down to politicians finding it profitable to keep the drug laws the way they are.
On a practical level, as we've learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn't mix with Humanism, though. :roll:
while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.:question: 7 years for that.is.effing.outrageous. I've seen people get less time, for much worse, in Maryland. My son is also 1/2 Black, which makes him all black in the system (they obviously still do the one drop law, but avoid saying so), despite being told he's both by both of us. So it gets even more outrageous and you can see why I got upset about that dude who committed murder and only got 4 years in prison. The system is screwed up when people do worse crimes and get less time, plus factor in the minority population in prisons v the white population.
While I don't approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them. I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.Yes, and most LEO's, health care providers agree that it's a medical problem foremost. At this point, I accept that it's down to politicians finding it profitable to keep the drug laws the way they are. That's basically my thoughts too. Greedy politicians don't care as long as they get money.
On a practical level, as we've learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn't mix with Humanism, though. :roll: And if the person has been wrongly convicted? Back to the orginal thread: According to this morning's Buffalo News Saudi Arabia excuted 7 men convicted of theft, looting and armed robbery Weds. by firing squad. Amesty International points out "It's a bloody day when a government executes seven peopleon the grounds of 'confessions' obtained under torture, submitted at a trial where they had no legal representation or recourse to appeal."
My original comment about veiled barbarism was meant only to cover what we in the US cover by lethal injection etc. Sure Saudi includes more, but that’s because they have no separation of church and state. As for Fundies in the US, you bet your bippie if they had their way they’d do away with that separation, and slowly the US too would be giving lethal injections to abortion clinic doctors, probably youngs girls who had abortions, you name it.
Sr. Member Total Posts: 276 Joined 2012-04-25 My original comment about veiled barbarism was meant only to cover what we in the US cover by lethal injection etc. Sure Saudi includes more, but that’s because they have no separation of church and state. As for Fundies in the US, you bet your bippie if they had their way they’d do away with that separation, and slowly the US too would be giving lethal injections to abortion clinic doctors, probably youngs girls who had abortions, you name it.In that respect, unfortunately you might be right. Few remember that at one time getting and assisting in abortion was a felony and homosexuality was a crime, and it wasn't all that long ago. Protecting the establishment clause is essential and yes, there are fundies that would salivate at ridding the first amendment of church-state separation. However, the idea of Islamic style punishment in the US still wouldn't fly. It hasn't been used since the"Indian Wars" of the last century. ( "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee"). Cap't Jack
...However, the idea of Islamic style punishment in the US still wouldn't fly. It hasn't been used since the"Indian Wars" of the last century. ( "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee").Exactly, because it would force the US to realize just how barbaric capital punishment is. We can't us poor US citizens get hurt feelings now can we. On a related note, the most recent email blast from Michael Moore was spot on. He talked about how showing photos of various events in US history has had such an effect, for example Emmett Till, Vietnam, and now Newtown (he's knudging someone to leak the photos). Once americans are forced to see the brutality that exists in this country then maybe they'll finally act.
I’ll admit to being of two minds on the death penalty.
Here is a post I made on this subject on one of the public Yahoo comment forums:
“The last time anybody published any data on the question, the Innocence Project has managed to exhonorate over 250 wrongfully convicted prisoners, a lot of whom were facing either execution or lifetime incarceration for crimes which they did NOT commit and who were cleared by DNA evidence.
I have no problem with execution where there is no room for even the slightest doubt, but the PROBLEM is that the system which exists is ruled as much by emotion and the notion that “SOMEBODY’S gotta pay!” This leaves the door wide open for a lot of abuses ranging from so-called witnesses with personal agendas, to prosecutors who will do anything for a conviction and to hell with the facts.
Unfortunately, this is not debatable. All these abuses happen, and that means there is way too much potential for a whole string of hideous mistakes.
The reason FOR the death penalty has nothing to do with deterrence. The evidence for that is questionable at best. The reason for the death penalty is the same which one has for shooting a rabid dog: The person in question is so anti-social and dangerous that his/her very existence poses an unacceptable risk to society.
The reason for ABOLISHING the death penalty or at least placing a long moratorium on it is because in the system as it stands, there is too much potential for a mistake, and if you kill and innocent person, saying “I’m sorry/” after the fact ain’t good enough.”
I’m not what you would call a “touchy feely” sort of guy but if we’re going to be retentionist, the system needs a major cleaning up so that evidence rules instead of egos and due process doesn’t take it in the shorts. If we can’t manage that, then we would do better without it.
The reason FOR the death penalty has nothing to do with deterrence. The evidence for that is questionable at best. The reason for the death penalty is the same which one has for shooting a rabid dog: The person in question is so anti-social and dangerous that his/her very existence poses an unacceptable risk to society.This is the heart of the argument IMO. These predators are rare in our society but they do exist a la Ted Bundy, and the have to be delt with in some way. You may recall that Bundy escaped and went on a killing rampage until they caught and eventually executed him. The rest deserve a long prison sentence commensurate with their crime. My point is that if the states do outlaw the death penalty (Maryland became the 18th state to do so yesterday) they had better have a secure prison to house them in with a fail safe system to keep them from society for a lifetime. and that's super expensive. Cap't Jack
the system needs a major cleaning up so that evidence rules instead of egos and due process doesn’t take it in the shortsAnd pressure to get rapid convictions to show the public that law enforcement is "efficient." Spelling again.
On a practical level, as we've learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn't mix with Humanism, though. :roll: It's impossible to execute anyone quickly, as it should be. Even the worst cases have an unacceptable error rate and it's always inhumane to kill people in cold blood no matter what their crime. We should know we already live in an only half civilized society (saying half is being generous) in the US now. It will never be any better until we get rid of the death penalty for good. Civilized countries around the world have proven that it's possible to have a decent society without a death penalty and that it's a barbaric practice. Too bad the US couldn't have been a leader in this area instead of the last holdout for barbarism. IMO, it's a sign that the US is on a steep downward trajectory when it comes to being an admirable society.
And pressure to get rapid convistions to show the public that law enforcement is “efficient."I'm afraid that's where a lot of egos come into play, and not just with capital crimes either. Remember the McMartin Preschol affair? One acquittal after another and yet the prosecutor just kept after them, and after them and after them with one indictment after another. it became something of a holy crusade with her and she could never admit she was wrong. Same issue with the Dale Akiki deal. You might recall sayings like "Believe the victim" and "Nobody would ever make up stories about a thing like that! It all started coming apart when the children who were the star witnesses against Mr. Akiki gave testimony about sexual acts involving elephants. The whole witch hunt mentality was...and to a large degree...still is alive and well when it comes to sex crimes. I can't say as it's all that different with capital crimes either.
U Not as expensive as the death penalty. We do need an overhaul of our whole prison system and system of justice and punishment. It would cost less in the long term and maybe the US could finally hold its head up among civilized societies. It certainly can't now. http://www.deathpenalty.org/section.php?id=13 1) Executions are carried out at staggering cost to taxpayers. It costs far more to execute a person than to keep him or her in prison for life. A 2011 study found that California has spent more than $4 billion on capital punishment since it was reinstated in 1978 and that death penalty trials are 20 times more expensive than trials seeking a sentence of life in prison without possibility of parole. California currently spends $184 million on the death penalty each year and is on track to spend $1 billion in the next five years. 2) There is no credible evidence that capital punishment deters crime. Scientific studies have consistently failed to demonstrate that executions deter people from committing crime anymore than long prison sentences. Moreover, states without the death penalty have much lower murder rates. The South accounts for 80% of US executions and has the highest regional murder rate. 3) Innocent people have been convicted and executed. The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 140 men and women have been released from Death Row nationally....some only minutes away from execution. Moreover, in the past two years evidence has come to light which indicates that four men may have been wrongfully EXECUTED in recent years for crimes they did not commit. This error rate is simply appalling, and completely unacceptable, when we are talking about life and death. 4) Race plays a role in determining who lives and who dies. The race of the victim and the race of the defendant in capital cases are major factors in determining who is sentenced to die in this country. In 1990 a report from the General Accounting Office concluded that "in 82 percent of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e. those who murdered whites were more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks." 5) The death penalty is applied at random. Politics, quality of legal counsel and the jurisdiction where a crime is committed are more often the determining factors in a death penalty case than the facts of the crime itself. The death penalty is a lethal lottery: of the 22,000 homicides committed every year approximately 150 people are sentenced to death. 6) Capital punishment goes against almost every religion. Although isolated passages of religious scripture have been quoted in support of the death penalty, almost all religious groups in the United States regard executions as immoral. 7) The USA is keeping company with notorious human rights abusers. The vast majority of countries in Western Europe, North America and South America — more than 139 nations worldwide — have abandoned capital punishment in law or in practice. The United States remains in the same company as Iraq, Iran and China as one of the major advocates and users of capital punishment. 8) Millions currently spent on the death penalty could be used to assist the families of murder victims. Many family members who have lost love ones to murder feel that the death penalty will not heal their wounds nor will it end their pain; the extended process prior to executions can prolong the agony experienced by the family. Funds now being used for the costly process of executions could be used to help families put their lives back together through counseling, restitution, crime victim hotlines, and other services addressing their needs. 9) Bad Lawyers are a Persistent Problem in Capital Cases Perhaps the most important factor in determining whether a defendant will receive the death penalty is the quality of the representation he or she is provided. Almost all defendants in capital cases cannot afford their own attorneys. In many cases, the appointed attorneys are overworked, underpaid, or lacking the trial experience required for death penalty cases. There have even been instances in which lawyers appointed to a death case were so inexperienced that they were completely unprepared for the sentencing phase of the trial. Other appointed attorneys have slept through parts of the trial, or arrived at the court under the influence of alcohol. 10) Life Without Parole is a Sensible Alternative to the Death Penalty In every state that retains the death penalty, jurors have the option of sentencing convicted capital murderers to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The sentence is cheaper to tax-payers and keeps violent offenders off the streets for good. Unlike the death penalty, a sentence of Life Without Parole also allows mistakes to be corrected. There are currently over 3,300 people in California who have received this alternative sentence, which also has a more limited appeals process last approximately 3 years. According to the California Governor's Office, only seven people sentenced to life without parole have been released since the state provided for this option in 1977, and this occurred because they were able to prove their innocence.The reason FOR the death penalty has nothing to do with deterrence. The evidence for that is questionable at best. The reason for the death penalty is the same which one has for shooting a rabid dog: The person in question is so anti-social and dangerous that his/her very existence poses an unacceptable risk to society.This is the heart of the argument IMO. These predators are rare in our society but they do exist a la Ted Bundy, and the have to be delt with in some way. You may recall that Bundy escaped and went on a killing rampage until they caught and eventually executed him. The rest deserve a long prison sentence commensurate with their crime. My point is that if the states do outlaw the death penalty (Maryland became the 18th state to do so yesterday) they had better have a secure prison to house them in with a fail safe system to keep them from society for a lifetime. and that's super expensive. Cap't Jack
On a practical level, as we've learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn't mix with Humanism, though. :roll: It's impossible to execute anyone quickly, as it should be. Even the worst cases have an unacceptable error rate and it's always inhumane to kill people in cold blood no matter what their crime. We should know we already live in an only half civilized society (saying half is being generous) in the US now. It will never be any better until we get rid of the death penalty for good. Civilized countries around the world have proven that it's possible to have a decent society without a death penalty and that it's a barbaric practice. Too bad the US couldn't have been a leader in this area instead of the last holdout for barbarism. IMO, it's a sign that the US is on a steep downward trajectory when it comes to being an admirable society.The US has never been, nor will it ever be, an admirable society. What do you mean by stating - even the worst cases have an unacceptable error rate? If the person of interest has undeniable evidence against them, and they admit their guilt, where's the error?
Not as expensive as the death penalty. We do need an overhaul of our whole prison system and system of justice and punishment. It would cost less in the long term and maybe the US could finally hold its head up among civilized societies. It certainly can't now.The correctional system needs overhaul, but the judicial system just needs some cleaning up.