I asked you:
- Do the sun and the landscape appear simultaneously on the screen of the camera obscura?
- Do the sun and the landscape appear simultaneously on the retina of the eye?
- Do I see the sun and the landscape appear simultaneously?
All yes or no questions.
You really seem to have troubles answering questions. I made them red for you.
And to add: how does the information from the sun being turned on reach us?
It doesn't have to reach us as the word "reach" implies travel time.
The information that the sun is turned on does not need any time to reach us?
The photons are at the camera because the camera is taking a picture of the real object so it works exactly the same way as the eye.
Photons travel with 300,000km/s. So the picture of the sun reaches the backside of the camera obscura (not a camera! The camera obscura is the simplest device to project a picture of the environment: just a small hole and a screen!) after 8 1/2 minutes.
There is no discrepancy between cameras and eyes. They work the same way. In other words, if the Sun were just turned on and we took a picture at that second (before the light had 81/2 minutes to reach Earth) we would be getting a real time photograph of the Sun, not a delayed photograph.
So say you would look at the screen of the camera obscura, and at the landscape at the same time: then your would see:
1. how the sun appears simultaneous in the sky and at the screen of the camera obscura.
2. Only after 8 1/2 minutes you see the landscape in reality and at the screen of the camera obscura.
3. And of course at the same moment you see how light falls on the case of camera obscura itself.
Right? Is this what one would see?
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be 8 1/2 minutes or a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
I typed this in my present and before you see it it will be several minutes old, but you are reading and experiencing this old message in your present.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
Given that perspective yes I agree, the only thing we can experience now is the thought or image inside our mind, everything from the outside is of the past, no matter how recent, our stimuli from the outside is of the past.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
Given that perspective yes I agree, the only thing we can experience now is the thought or image inside our mind, everything from the outside is of the past, no matter how recent, our stimuli from the outside is of the past.
Exactly,
That is how I interpret Lessans argument from ignorance, because he proposes that the information is not old but in our present, which is experientially correct, but physically impossible.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
Given that perspective yes I agree, the only thing we can experience now is the thought or image inside our mind, everything from the outside is of the past, no matter how recent, our stimuli from the outside is of the past.
Exactly,
That is how I interpret Lessans argument from ignorance, because he proposes that the information is not old but in our present, which is experientially correct, but physically impossible.
In essence what we see, (the image in our brain) is in the present, no matter how long it has taken the image, carried on the wings of light, to reach our eyes. In that sense Lessans is correct that the image we experience is of "now", his error was to assume that we could experience the image of a distant object as it exists now, even though the image we experience in now rather than then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=356faqb9JnU
That's a side-effect of how the eyes function. He had to explain that we are seeing reality, not virtual reality.
He didn't explain how the eyes function, and no-one is claiming we only see virtual reality. Again there is nothing efferent in his account.
Afferent vision is seeing an image formed in the mind when the actual physical object is no longer present. I call this a virtual reality.
That's not an explanation.
It wasn't meant to be.
You are trying to compare a car that hasn't gotten to my house yet. It's not the same thing with the eyes...
I never made any such comparison. But as it happens, it is exactly the same. You are speaking of photons, and claiming that they will be at the eyes before they could possibly have gotten there. That makes no sense and is plainly impossible. Blithering about being 'put within a landscape' does nothing to address this problem, as you know perfectly well.
You are not forthcoming. The more I try to explain why Lessans arrived at these conclusions, the more aggressive people become so I'm opting out of this discussion.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be 8 1/2 minutes or a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
I typed this in my present and before you see it it will be several minutes old, but you are reading and experiencing this old message in your present.
You're a parrot. :lol:
That's a side-effect of how the eyes function. He had to explain that we are seeing reality, not virtual reality.
He didn't explain how the eyes function, and no-one is claiming we only see virtual reality. Again there is nothing efferent in his account.
Afferent vision is seeing an image formed in the mind when the actual physical object is no longer present. I call this a virtual reality.
.
That is only one aspect of afferent vision for very distant objects. Since the time delay for terrestrial objects is measured in nanoseconds, the apparent delay in the time when the object is removed till the last photons arrive at the eye is so small as to seem instantaneous. No-one is claiming otherwise, no-one is claiming that we can see a terrestrial object after the object has been removed from the line of sight. That is just one of your's and Lessans "straw man' arguments that has no meaning. Virtual reality is something very different, the term you are looking for is "delayed vision", but you avoid that term so as to not appear to give it any credence. You need to start addressing reality as it is, not as Lessans imagined it should be.
Peacegirl is locked in the "closed system of her mind". In her mind everything is instantaneous in the present, or so it would appear to her mind.
If that is another way of saying her mind is "welded" shut, I would agree that you are correct. With Peacegirl the only reality is Lessans book and everything else must fit or be discarded as wrong, and she will go to great lenghts to corrupt reality to fit with Lessans fantasy.
It is not as farfetched as it sounds. The experiences of each individual mind of the IS the present of the person. The input is from the past, but our perception (subjective experience) of the past is in our present. Each individual has his own unique present relative to the point of observation peculiar to each individual. It has nothing to do with physics other than the mechanical (bio-chemical) processing of past information by the eye and the neural network of the brain.
The result constitutes our present.
It is a subjective psychological phenomenon, our present is "locked inside the closed system of the mind" and is an efferent product of the mind.
We always "see" the sun in our present even as the information we see may be 8 1/2 minutes or a thousand years old. Our present is an self generated mental illusion of the past. We cannot change this no matter how well we understand the physics. Just like optical Illusions, we may know the cause, but we cannot help seeing what we see now in our individual present.
Forget the science, its a psychological phenomenon.
I typed this in my present and before you see it it will be several minutes old, but you are reading and experiencing this old message in your present.
You're a parrot. :lol:
Who am I parroting? You're a warmonger. :-S
Who am I parroting? You're a warmonger. :-S
One of Peacegirls more endearing qualities is her ability to regurgitate the criticisms that have been addressed to her, back at others who have rarely demonstrated those characteristics, just a bit of projection on her part.
It shouldn't be too long till she starts accusing everyone else of being a warmonger, whether she understands the word or not, probably she does not.
One of the questions that comes up is if Adam and Eve were the first humans 6,000 years ago, why are there different blood types at all. Shouldn’t we all have the same type of blood? The other question is why are some types non-transferable to others, why is there sometimes a fatal reaction when the wrong type is used. Myself, I have what has been called the universal donor, I can give to anyone except for all the medications I am on that no-one wants. Blood types alone would indicate a long period (tens of thousands of years) of divergence for different groups to evolve different types of blood. If God made us all from the same mold, why don’t we all have the same type of blood? This tells me that God used whatever was at hand to evolve humans a long time ago. Even intelligent design, doesn’t hold up.
One of the questions that comes up is if Adam and Eve were the first humans 6,000 years ago, why are there different blood types at all. Shouldn't we all have the same type of blood? The other question is why are some types non-transferable to others, why is there sometimes a fatal reaction when the wrong type is used. Myself, I have what has been called the universal donor, I can give to anyone except for all the medications I am on that no-one wants. Blood types alone would indicate a long period (tens of thousands of years) of divergence for different groups to evolve different types of blood. If God made us all from the same mold, why don't we all have the same type of blood? This tells me that God used whatever was at hand to evolve humans a long time ago. Even intelligent design, doesn't hold up.
I agree, but you may have posted this in the wrong thread (see Religion and Secularism - "In God's Image")