# Morality
**URL:** https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861
**Category:** Religion and Secularism
**Created:** [October 13, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861 "2014-10-13T03:48:34Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/1 "2014-10-13T03:48:34Z")
This is for the theists here.
If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence?
If “no”, you proved that we do not need a God for morals.
If “yes”, it raises an interesting issue.
Lois
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### Author:  [@finallydecided](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/finallydecided)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/2 "2014-10-13T04:02:58Z")
Don’t the “Bible Belt” states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences?
Highly “Christian” locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
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### Author:  [@scottpryor](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/scottpryor)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/3 "2014-10-13T05:06:43Z")
> Don't the "Bible Belt" states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences? Highly "Christian" locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a causal link between the higher rate of religiosity and the higher crime rate in the South. There is also higher crime rates in urban areas where there are more liberals who tend to be less religious than those in rural areas.
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### Author:  [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/4 "2014-10-13T14:02:23Z")
> Don't the "Bible Belt" states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences? Highly "Christian" locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a causal link between the higher rate of religiosity and the higher crime rate in the South. There is also higher crime rates in urban areas where there are more liberals who tend to be less religious than those in rural areas. [I think you're right Scott](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/no-time-for-crime-study-f_b_4384046.html)] But the question was to individuals. If in fact, crime is lower for church goers, it would be valuable to study why. I doubt it is because angels are looking out for them, or Jesus is planted in their heart or whatever it is they say. More likely, it's fear, fear of their own community that is, or guilt, or on the positive side, it could be a supportive community that is actually teaching values. Those values can be taught without belief in any god.
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### Author:  [@finallydecided](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/finallydecided)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/5 "2014-10-14T00:16:49Z")
> Don't the "Bible Belt" states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences? Highly "Christian" locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a causal link between the higher rate of religiosity and the higher crime rate in the South. There is also higher crime rates in urban areas where there are more liberals who tend to be less religious than those in rural areas. You're right, it would be difficult to establish a causal relationship between religiosity and higher crime rates; but the correlation is interesting. However, I am not sure the urban vs. rural arguement has is the same and I do not think the violence has as much to do with reigion, but rather more with injustices exacted upon certain groups, significant socioeconmic differences and the mere cultural heterogeneity that exists in inner cities.
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/6 "2014-10-14T00:31:22Z")
> Don't the "Bible Belt" states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences? Highly "Christian" locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a causal link between the higher rate of religiosity and the higher crime rate in the South. There is also higher crime rates in urban areas where there are more liberals who tend to be less religious than those in rural areas. You're right, it would be difficult to establish a causal relationship between religiosity and higher crime rates; but the correlation is interesting. However, I am not sure the urban vs. rural arguement has is the same and I do not think the violence has as much to do with reigion, but rather more with injustices exacted upon certain groups, significant socioeconmic differences and the mere cultural heterogeneity that exists in inner cities. Yes, in other words, thousands of determining factors none of us have any knowledge of or control over. Yes, we may be able to speculate about some factors but we have no idea of their influence compared with other factors, many of which we know nothing about and, in fact, don't even know exist. Yet humans like to pretend we know what causes crime (and a lo tof other human behavior) when we don't have the least inkling about it. Human arrogance knows no bounds. Lois
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### Author:  [@cuthbertj](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/cuthbertj)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/7 "2014-10-14T17:12:08Z")
> This is for the theists here. If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence? If "no", you proved that we do not need a God for morals. If "yes", it raises an interesting issue. Lois
Sorry but I don't find this the least bit interesting. There are plenty of theists who believe God 100% TRUE and STILL commit acts of violence. Sometimes those acts spring from their 100% belief. So what's already been proven time and again is that 100% belief in a god does NOT ensure morality. Of course in their warped reality killing an abortion doctor, for example, is somehow moral. Sick.
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/8 "2014-10-14T17:18:26Z")
> This is for the theists here. If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence? If "no", you proved that we do not need a God for morals. If "yes", it raises an interesting issue. Lois
Sorry but I don't find this the least bit interesting. There are plenty of theists who believe God 100% TRUE and STILL commit acts of violence. Sometimes those acts spring from their 100% belief. So what's already been proven time and again is that 100% belief in a god does NOT ensure morality. Of course in their warped reality killing an abortion doctor, for example, is somehow moral. Sick. I agree with your analysis,, but disagree that he morality issue is not an interesting one. In my opinion, it's fascinating, if for no other reason than that it is so completely misunderstood. Lois
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### Author:  [@deros](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/deros)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/9 "2014-10-14T21:53:07Z")
> This is for the theists here. If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence? If "no", you proved that we do not need a God for morals. If "yes", it raises an interesting issue. Lois
Anyone able to actually think for themselves knows morality has nothing to do with religion so why even ask such a question.
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 15, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/10 "2014-10-15T02:46:12Z")
> This is for the theists here. If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence? If "no", you proved that we do not need a God for morals. If "yes", it raises an interesting issue. Lois
Anyone able to actually think for themselves knows morality has nothing to do with religion so why even ask such a question. Because 9/10 of the world cannot think for itself and is under the heel of theism. At least some of them are on this forum. Lois
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### Author:  [@dpkeele](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/dpkeele)
#### Post date: [October 15, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/11 "2014-10-15T22:59:12Z")
The question as stated kinda has an agenda. The real question is, is morality a product of religion, or something else?
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/12 "2014-10-16T03:41:06Z")
> The question as stated kinda has an agenda. The real question is, is morality a product of religion, or something else?
I thought that question was answered. Religious people tend to attribute their sense of morality to their religion, but, IMO, all humans get their morality from the same place--from their genes (rational minds), environment and experience in living with other people. Religion as a source of morality is a justification. Religion itself comes from the same place morality comes from (as above). Lois
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### Author:  [@dpkeele](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/dpkeele)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/13 "2014-10-16T18:03:18Z")
> The question as stated kinda has an agenda. The real question is, is morality a product of religion, or something else?
I thought that question was answered. Religious people tend to attribute their sense of morality to their religion, but, IMO, all humans get their morality from the same place--from their genes (rational minds), environment and experience in living with other people. Religion as a source of morality is a justification. Religion itself comes from the same place morality comes from (as above). Lois You are right. I makes me think that this logical approach to a discussion with theists is far more likely to reach them than an evidence based approach ever can.
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### Author:  [@finallydecided](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/finallydecided)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/14 "2014-10-16T21:42:52Z")
In terms of morality and religion, I read an interesting article on Mother Teresa, who apparently has recently developed a less than glorious status as many once thought she was worthy of. Reportedly, she recieved millions and millions over the years and volunteers at her sites reported deplorable conditions, no one cleaning up sewage, denying people their needed medications, “nurses” performing procedures on patients and denying anesthetic and pain-killers, even though all these supplies were donated by major hospitals and healthcare organizations. Someone stated she used charity and “helping humanity” simply as a means to end, which in the case for her may have been to just “check” charity off her “get to heaven” list. Will find and post the article soon. In my opinion, morality must be “quality” acts–what’s the point if you think certain people are so inferior that your help should keep somone in misery…it’s like offering spoiled milk to a newborn or rotten meat to a homeless person; because afterall, it’s better than nothing, right?
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/15 "2014-10-16T23:40:56Z")
> In terms of morality and religion, I read an interesting article on Mother Teresa, who apparently has recently developed a less than glorious status as many once thought she was worthy of. Reportedly, she recieved millions and millions over the years and volunteers at her sites reported deplorable conditions, no one cleaning up sewage, denying people their needed medications, "nurses" performing procedures on patients and denying anesthetic and pain-killers, even though all these supplies were donated by major hospitals and healthcare organizations. Someone stated she used charity and "helping humanity" simply as a means to end, which in the case for her may have been to just "check" charity off her "get to heaven" list. Will find and post the article soon. In my opinion, morality must be "quality" acts--what's the point if you think certain people are so inferior that your help should keep somone in misery...it's like offering spoiled milk to a newborn or rotten meat to a homeless person; because afterall, it's better than nothing, right?
Seeing Mother Teresa as she was is noy new. In 2003, Christopher Hitchens wrote about what a pious fraud she was, upon her beatification by the Pope. http://www.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/fighting\_words/2003/10/mommie\_dearest.html He also wrote a book about her called The Missionary Position. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Missionary\_Position
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### Author:  [@jodyb](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/jodyb)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/16 "2014-10-17T00:21:49Z")
> If you found out God 100% false, would you commit acts of violence?
An "act of violence" is an extreme violation of a moral law, but who imposes that law? Either a preternatural entity, e.g. God, or society, but if society, what is the basis? One simple rule present in most world religions and the Humanist Manifesto is the Golden Rule, both positive and negative. I suspect if one could corner slippery philosophers and ask them to start with a blank sheet of paper and construct a code of morality for society, they would end up with a very wordy exposition of the Golden Rule.
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### Author:  [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/17 "2014-10-18T00:30:35Z")
The below link is a comprehensive analysis of the dichotomy between religious moral values and secular moral values. I can highly recommend reading it and even keeping it in your reference library.
> **[Issues of Ethics and Morality](https://www.learnreligions.com/atheism-and-agnosticism-ethics-4684816?nl=1)**
>
> Can morality exist without a belief in God and religious values? Can a secular, atheistic, godless morality in fact be superior to one that relies on religious beliefs? Explore these and other complex issues related to ethics and morality.
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### Author:  [@loisl](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/loisl)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/18 "2014-10-18T03:44:56Z")
Excellent article. Tells it like it is.
Lois
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### Author:  [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality/3861/19 "2014-10-18T07:24:12Z")
> Don't the "Bible Belt" states demonstrate higher rates of violence, rape, drug use and interestingly abortion rates are higher along with STD incidences? Highly "Christian" locales, specifically the southeast US, have some issues and interestingly, no one wants to discuss them because it will contradict everything they outwardly want us to believe.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a causal link between the higher rate of religiosity and the higher crime rate in the South. There is also higher crime rates in urban areas where there are more liberals who tend to be less religious than those in rural areas. Perhaps you have not researched this thoroughly. Below is excerpt and link which demonstrates that Abrahanic Religions contribute to dysfunctional societies.
> RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society
http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/SocialSciences/ppecorino/PHIL\_of\_RELIGION\_TEXT/CHAPTER\_9\_MORALITY\_VALUES/Secular\_Morality\_Inferior.htm and
> Predominantly Atheist Countries Have Lowest Crime Rate According To Study
http://www.nairaland.com/121066/predominantly-atheist-countries-lowest-crime