# Morality is natural **URL:** \ **Category:** Religion and Secularism\ **Created:** [June 21, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925 "2024-06-21T12:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/21 "2024-06-23T16:31:26Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > seems you haven’t spent much time learning about the science and history of our Global Heat and Moisture Distribution Engine You and MikeYohe are more alike every day. We agree on AGW, you and me. We disagree on how we will survive. The current economy is doomed, but it’s the next that will decide our fate. Pinker has nothing about that, I don’t know why you think I worship him Seed vaults, non-carbon energy, knowledge bases, this will survive. And there will be people to use them ---
**Author:** ![citizenschallengev4](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/citizenschallengev4/32/28718_2.png) [@citizenschallengev4](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/citizenschallengev4)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/22 "2024-06-23T16:53:26Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > I don’t know why you think I worship him Did I say you worship him? I didn’t think it was that bad. But, since you asked, **[Everything all the time](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/everything-all-the-time/10803)** Seems you feel very comfortable with his schtick. Then do an in-house search for Pinker, seems to be a go-to guy for you. FOie on your M.Y. comment, that dude lives in his imagination, lower taxes, and more profits are his comment’s guiding light. If you ever want a serious discussion about Climate science, jet stream, weather patterns, ocean currents, ocean acidification - compounding cascading consequences here on the land and trajectories. I’ll bring solid science - Mike offers just so story intent on confusing. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/23 "2024-06-23T17:30:24Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > If you ever want a serious discussion about Climate science, jet stream, weather patterns, ocean currents, ocean acidification - compounding cascading consequences here on the land and trajectories. I’ll bring solid science I know you do. When did you start thinking that I don’t know you bring the solid science? You sound like Mike when you say, “you haven’t spent much time learning about…” > [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > Did I say you worship him? > I didn’t think it was that bad. So tired of the semantics ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/24 "2024-06-23T19:57:55Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > Seems you feel very comfortable with his schtick I searched “Pinker” and went back two years, which didn’t take long because of so few references. If I’m commenting, mostly it’s someone else bringing him up. I saw one where you and I agreed on what was wrong about a Pinker video. Others were mostly me picking out something isolated from him, something to start a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/25 "2024-06-23T20:44:52Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > We were created out of Earth’s processes and our bodies carry the relics of hundreds of millions of years worth of evolutionary advance We are part of the Earth and if we don’t take care of her, we will be destroyed. > [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > I appreciate the sentiment, but I don’t think you appreciate how much those words still put the onus upon Earth. I’m telling you it doesn’t, but you want to see it that way. Even the N.A. preach the same thing I’m preaching. The Water Protectors even say “Water is life” and if we don’t take care of it we all die. Just as if we don’t take care of Mother Earth, we all die. Plain and simple. Sadly, it’s head that way with a very angry Mother Earth. She’s angry and sick because we won’t take care of her. We not only need to consume less, but also change our ways. Like the Natives say, if we take something from the Earth, we need to give something back. If you go to a Smudge, they burn sage, which came from Mother Earth. When it burns out, the ashes are return to the Earth. We aren’t suppose to throw them in the trash. > [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > For the past half century, when we could have realistically done many things to slow down our glutinous tendencies, and the warming trajectories Even my grandfather taught me you never take more than you need and you always give back. > [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > But, we were too self-absorbed and self-serving to even entertain that bottom-line reality That’s because no one taught them these things. No one taught them they are part of the Earth or in my grandfather’s words “Part of God’s creation”. No one taught them that if they take something, give something, and never take more than you need. > [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > But the point is that such conceptualization takes us away from understanding the real dynamics of what’s happening. It doesn’t if you tell it right. The Earth is angry because we have not taken care of her. You have to listen to the whole sentence. You can’t just take four words and latch onto them. That’s not listening, that’s just taking four words and disregarding the rest and that’s where humans screw up. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/26 "2024-06-23T20:48:30Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > The current economy is doomed, but it’s the next that will decide our fate. Most definitely. We probably need to go Star Trek style, cashless society, maybe credits or something like that, but this work hard for the money crap isn’t working, as the rich get richer. We’re just feeding greed. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/27 "2024-06-23T23:03:30Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > It doesn’t if you tell it right. The Earth is angry because we have not taken care of her. You have to listen to the whole sentence. You can’t just take four words and latch onto them Can I get a “Darwin” ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/centerforinquiry/original/3X/8/a/8a1492808e8037d6c746cabab6db6fb35c785e0b.gif) ---
**Author:** ![citizenschallengev4](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/citizenschallengev4/32/28718_2.png) [@citizenschallengev4](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/citizenschallengev4)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 12:05pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/28 "2024-06-24T12:05:25Z")
There’s so much I agree with, in what you say. But no, the “Angry Earth” doesn’t work for me - Earth isn’t anything like a petty petulant God that’s always getting angry at this and this. From my minds eye, I see Earth as older wiser, and she knows how to take the slings & arrows that are shot at her. She adjusts with the creatures upon her simply having to make do, some succumb and the others carry on. I get angry for Earth, but then I’m a petty human, Earth is well beyond all that’s unfolding within my mind. ---
**Author:** ![morgankane01](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/morgankane01/32/28536_2.png) [@morgankane01](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/morgankane01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/29 "2024-06-24T15:46:46Z")
Please, don’t anthropomorphize earth. When there is a volcano eruption, i can say that Earth is angry, but i know that the eruption is the result of mechanical and geological forces, not of a will of Earth. If i was religious i would be animist, and i would believe that the universe has a spirit, and that every element of it bears a share of it. But, that’s a dream. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/30 "2024-06-24T15:50:05Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > But no, the “Angry Earth” doesn’t work for me Thank you for the “me” statement. I wish there was an “I” statement site for posting. Most of them are about couples. But the concept applies. > **[The Importance of “I-Statements” in Relationships](https://www.tonyrobbins.com/blog/words-matter-you-vs-i)** > > Understand the difference between “I” and “you” statements in relationships. Discover why your wording matters and examples of how to change your language. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/31 "2024-06-24T18:04:35Z")
Back to the topic. Like I said, I often don’t finish these, but I’m getting this one in bites. I’m a sci-fi fan, for the one or two of you who don’t know that, and I’ve read Plato’s Republic. I’ve always been intrigued by the part near the end about making up a myth about society, and telling everyone they have to go through tests to determine where they fit in this constructed myth of a society. Christianity is one of the closest attempts at adopting this idea, and here, Carrier calls it fascism. Because it is. > #### **The Actual Basis of Human Rights** > > Across the novels _2001_ and _2010_ you can find a subtle critique of Plato’s _Republic_. Plato was the first philosopher of fascism, and his _Republic_ is the first elaborate argument for fascism as a political system of public control. The basic idea was that people will only “be good” if they are convinced of an elaborate lie, essentially some religious myth about their fate in the afterlife; and therefore a system must be set up whereby anyone who would challenge or question or change the myth must be kidnapped and coerced to stop or else simply killed. In the story of _2001_, the computer Hal was secretly ordered to prevent the crew of his ship from learning about their mission; so when they started asking questions and getting close to finding out, he had to kill them. The absurdity of that is precisely shared by Plato’s vision. > > This is identical to what Davidson wants: a fascist regime that will suppress anyone questioning, doubting, or challenging the fabulous “control myth” he thinks is needed to keep people in line. Just like Plato. **The problem with this is that it is not only doomed (any such system will eventually be torn down [in outraged rebellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Berlin_Wall)) but it is self-refuting at its own core premise: the Guardians of Plato’s _Republic_ are supposed to know the truth (that the myth is false) and “guard” it for the pragmatic, neoconservative reason of preserving a well-ordered society; but that means the Guardians have to have good reasons to maintain this supposedly righteous order _other than the myth_.** Which means—the myth _isn’t_ needed. You could instead just educate the public on the _actual_ reasons to behave in prosocial ways. And instead of wasting resources watching every individual in society for ideological “deviance” and arresting or killing “deviators” (indeed even mere “questioners”) you could instead deploy those resources toward policing _actual_ deviators—people who commit _actual_ crimes—and not just anyone and everyone who is asking questions or coming up with new findings or ideas. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/32 "2024-06-24T18:34:57Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > But no, the “Angry Earth” doesn’t work for me - Earth isn’t anything like a petty petulant God that’s always getting angry at this and this. No one, not even the N.A. said the Earth was a god or even goddess, despite the title “Mother Earth”. The idea of Mother Earth comes from two-leggers and four-leggers came from the Earth. In fact, Father Sky impregnanted Mother Earth. One can say it was the rains or the stars, but even the Natives know we came from the Universe because they are very much in touch with nature and they know we must care for our home- the Earth or she will destroy us. > [@morgankane01](#): > > Please, don’t anthropomorphize earth. I will if I want. She is a living thing. > [@morgankane01](#): > > If i was religious i would be animist, and i would believe that the universe has a spirit, and that every element of it bears a share of it. Welcome to Native Americanism. They are/were animists. ---
**Author:** ![write4u](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/write4u/32/23410_2.png) [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/33 "2024-06-24T18:35:26Z")
> [@morgankane01](#): > > When there is a volcano eruption, i can say that Earth is angry, but i know that the eruption is the result of mechanical and geological forces, not of a will of Earth. I agree with the gist of your post. But just for purpose of clarity. Human emotions are also caused by identifiable biochemical and mechanical forces. At a simpler level, reaction to external stimuli is already experienced by single celled organisms like paramecium via it’s cilia, that allow it to swim and learn how to navigate obstacles. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/34 "2024-06-24T20:58:18Z")
Did anyone else see the post that was served up from 2016? [Darwin Day Revelation: Evolution, Not Religion, is the Source of Morality - Humanism - CFI Forums (centerforinquiry.org)](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/darwin-day-revelation-evolution-not-religion-is-the-source-of-morality/4783) ---
**Author:** ![write4u](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/write4u/32/23410_2.png) [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 11:12pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/35 "2024-06-24T23:12:20Z")
Over the years, CFI has amassed a wealth of information. ---
**Author:** ![citizenschallengev4](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/citizenschallengev4/32/28718_2.png) [@citizenschallengev4](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/citizenschallengev4)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/36 "2024-06-25T01:08:42Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > No one, not even the N.A. said the Earth was a god or even goddess, I would hope not. > [@mriana](#): > > despite the title “Mother Earth”. For me “Mother Earth” is a quite literal description. After all we are the products of Earth’s processes, the blood pumping through your heart, has a direct lineages that goes back unbroken literally hundreds of millions of years. This is scientific fact, not some philosopher/theologian’s notion. Solid material FACT. Your body is the result of hundreds of millions of years worth of Earth’s geological/biological Evolution. Your mind, your thoughts, your soul, your “Gods” all that is the product of your body getting on with living. Many philosophers still haven’t got the message, but that’s their loss. Tangible evidence shows us that we don’t need no stinking metaphysicals, to explain either human consciousness, or our “Gods”, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/37 "2024-06-25T01:53:32Z")
That I do agree with. I can rebut anything you said. ---
**Author:** ![citizenschallengev4](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/citizenschallengev4/32/28718_2.png) [@citizenschallengev4](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/citizenschallengev4)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 6:19am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/38 "2024-06-25T06:19:07Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > That I do agree with. I can rebut anything you said. That doesn’t seem internally consistent. What is it you can rebut? ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/39 "2024-06-25T12:39:33Z")
> [@citizenschallengev4](#): > > What is it you can rebut? Sorry, typo. I meant to type “can’t rebut”. Sometimes I type faster than my brain can manage. I type 60 wpm with few errors. You caught one. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 2:44pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925/40 "2024-06-25T14:44:05Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > Sometimes I type faster than my brain can manage I have been doing that for years. My wife thinks it funny that I re-read and edit every text and email I send. It seems like the most common thing I leave out is a negative like that. Once on a religious forum I said, “I’m here to debate”, when I meant “I’m not here to debate”. That didn’t go well. [Previous page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/morality-is-natural/10925.md?page=3)