Microtubules the seat of Consciousness

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

@citizenschallengev4

When I use Abrahamic Mindset, it’s about fundamental attitude - transcending all three religions that have made our modern world of amazing manmade wonder, but also increasing misery. A primary lens, so to speak, through which all is perceived, that’s what I’m talking about.

Yes, but is this different from other definitions of Abrahamic mindset?

That article is about how abrahamic religious mindset differs from other religions.
So what?
The three Abrahamic faiths have been the one that have formed today world, the rest have been also playeds.
But that’s beside the point.

Guess I’m pointing out something that’s actually new and that others have been avoiding. That’s why I’m stressing this is my definition for what I see when I consider the pageant of the human intellect and scholarly thought - the weirdness and fault in the Abrahamic Mindset is that “absolute self-obsession” infuses the entire history.

I’m not surprised the notion would offend many, but that’s what it is. Doesn’t make the observation any less true. History and current failures support this conclusion.

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

Guess I’m pointing out something that’s actually new and that others have been avoiding. That’s why I’m stressing this is my definition for what I see when I consider the pageant of the human intellect and scholarly thought - the weirdness and fault in the Abrahamic Mindset is that “absolute self-obsession” infuses the entire history.

Of course, the mind is a result of selection for survival skills. That includes selfishness, until it acquires a herd mentality.

I think I follow your train of thought, but a fact is that the human brain is an autonomous organ and by reason of its utter dependence on external stimulation it must be “selfish”.
It cannot afford to be generous unless it has acquired a healthy body and financial wealth. It is subject to survival pressures as much as all other organisms.

Natural selection selects for “selfishness” and “personal survival skills”. That’s why armed policemen selfishly stand around waiting for the killer with an AR15 to run out of bullets, but hive insects selflessly throw themselves into the war or drown to make a bridge across a stream.

Now that is selfless and removed from the Abrahamic mindset.

Just look at the plight of colored people. Their brain is exactly as any other human brain, yet they are prejudiced against because of the color of their skin! Do you expect them to practice selflessness? If not, does that mean they have a selfish Abrahamic mindset?

[citizenschallengev4]

Took a while to puzzle out what you’re going on about.
“Absolute self-absorbed”* IS A STATE OF MIND, the way of perceiving the outside world, it’s not an action such as “selfishness” or “altruism” - that’s all together something else.

{I see I sometimes transpose “obsessed” but that’s an unhelpful term, “self-absorbed” is a more accurate description of the concept I’m trying to describe.}

So absolutely self-absorbed we’re incapable of assessing anything, from outside of our own needs and expectations.

@write4u

(Brain) cannot afford to be generous unless it has acquired a healthy body and financial wealth. It is subject to survival pressures as much as all other organisms.

Case in point, still trapped totally within the Human Mindscape.

Where the hell did “generosity” get into this discussion?

unless brain has acquired a healthy body

What you think the brain acquires our body, what are you talking about?

@write4u

human brain is an autonomous organ

What’s that mean? “Autonomous” in what way?

@write4u

Of course, the mind is a result of selection for survival skills. That includes selfishness, until it acquires a herd mentality.

And what’s that supposed to mean? Herd mentality is eons older than the complex mammalian brain. Or?

@write4u

Just look at the plight of colored people. Their brain is exactly as any other human brain, yet they are prejudiced against because of the color of their skin! Do you expect them to practice selflessness? If not, does that mean they have a selfish Abrahamic mindset?

All that is just a smoke screen, especially since the Abrahamic mindset I’m discussing isn’t about “selfishness vs. altruism” it’s about the way we view/classify the information we acquire.

It’s about perspective way more than anyone these other items you’re bringing up.

@citizenschallengev4

So absolutely self-absorbed we’re incapable of assessing anything, from outside of our own needs and expectations.

[write4u]

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:43, topic:9472”]
Took a while to puzzle out what you’re going on about.
“Absolute self-absorbed”* IS A STATE OF MIND, the way of perceiving the outside world, it’s not an action such as “selfishness” or “altruism” - that’s all together something else.

Of course the brain is completely self-absorbed. It is only connected to everything else by secondary data received from the neural network.

You cannot ignore Descartes “brain in a vat”. It is demonstrably true. It can only make a best guess of what is observes from secondary information.

{I see I sometimes transpose “obsessed” but that’s an unhelpful term, “self-absorbed” is a more accurate description of the concept I’m trying to describe.}

So absolutely self-absorbed we’re incapable of assessing anything, from outside of our own needs and expectations.

No, that’s too much drama. You are describing narcissism, like Trump, but he is a “psychopathy”. That is the opposite of “empathy”!

[quote=“write4u, post:42, topic:9472”]
(Brain) cannot afford to be generous unless it has acquired a healthy body and financial wealth. It is subject to survival pressures as much as all other organisms.

Case in point, still trapped totally within the Human Mindscape.

What you are describing is Narcissism, but that is a clinical psychosis

I am talking about “controlled hallucinations” which are by definition subjective because the brain has no other means of interacting with its environment except by secondary (transposed) data from the sensory organs and transported by the neural network. You are still assigning abilities to the brain it doesn’t have.

Where the hell did “generosity” get into this discussion?

Look up the definitions contained in the term “generosity”. It means a lot more than as commonly used.

unless brain has acquired a healthy body

What you think the brain acquires our body, what are you talking about?

You can have a healthy brain in a diseased body and a diseased brain in a healthy body. Both conditions require a “selfish brain” in order to survive.

@write4u

human brain is an autonomous organ

What’s that mean? “Autonomous” in what way?

The “mind” is relatively independent from the body ( Descartes)

@write4u

Of course, the mind is a result of selection for survival skills. That includes selfishness, until it acquires a herd mentality.

And what’s that supposed to mean? Herd mentality is eons older than the complex mammalian brain. Or?

Yep, it is as old as the first insect hive. Probably some 3 billion years old.
Don’t forget , all living organism are a complex cellular hives . Cells are living things and communicate with each other via microtubules!

Hominids used to live in trees. Humans used to live in caves. Modern humans live in cities. Each stage is further removed from nature, and requires greater cooperation and tolerance of intrusion. (GPS, 1982?)

@write4u

Just look at the plight of colored people. Their brain is exactly as any other human brain, yet they are prejudiced against because of the color of their skin! Do you expect them to practice selflessness? If not, does that mean they have a selfish Abrahamic mindset?

All that is just a smoke screen, especially since the Abrahamic mindset I’m discussing isn’t about “selfishness vs. altruism” it’s about the way we view/classify the information we acquire.

It’s about perspective way more than anyone these other items you’re bringing up.

Yes, but what does “way more” mean?
See, from my perspective it is you who assigns a mysterious abstract property over and above “self-aware relationship with the environment”. Most people who live with nature “grok” their environment. As I said I built my own log cabin and lived 7 years like Thoreau as well as working for the Indians. I understand what you mean. Anything more “spiritual” than that gets into religion, IMO.

Have you researched the “mirror neural function” at all?
It allows one to experience another’s reality. It is called “empathy”.

I have an empathic relationship with other living organisms.

[write4u]

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:43, topic:9472”]
Took a while to puzzle out what you’re going on about.
“Absolute self-absorbed”* IS A STATE OF MIND, the way of perceiving the outside world, it’s not an action such as “selfishness” or “altruism” - that’s all together something else.

Of course the brain is completely self-absorbed. It is only connected to everything else by secondary data received from the neural network.

You cannot ignore Descartes “brain in a vat”. It is demonstrably true.

{I see I sometimes transpose “obsessed” but that’s an unhelpful term, “self-absorbed” is a more accurate description of the concept I’m trying to describe.}

So absolutely self-absorbed we’re incapable of assessing anything, from outside of our own needs and expectations.

[quote=“write4u, post:42, topic:9472”]
(Brain) cannot afford to be generous unless it has acquired a healthy body and financial wealth. It is subject to survival pressures as much as all other organisms.

Case in point, still trapped totally within the Human Mindscape.

What you are describing is Narcissism, but that is a clinical psychosis

I am talking about “controlled hallucinations” which are by definition subjective because the brain has no other means of interacting with its environment except by secondary (transposed) data from the sensory organs and transported by the neural network. You are still assigning abilities to the brain it doesn’t have.

Where the hell did “generosity” get into this discussion?

Look up the definitions contained in the term “generosity”. It means a lot more than as commonly used.

unless brain has acquired a healthy body

What you think the brain acquires our body, what are you talking about?

You can have a healthy brain in a diseased body and a diseased brain in a healthy body. Both conditions require a “selfish brain” in order to survive.

@write4u

human brain is an autonomous organ

What’s that mean? “Autonomous” in what way?

The brain is relatively independent from the body ( Descartes)

@write4u

Of course, the mind is a result of selection for survival skills. That includes selfishness, until it acquires a herd mentality.

And what’s that supposed to mean? Herd mentality is eons older than the complex mammalian brain. Or?

Yep, it is as old as the first insect hive. Probably some 3 billion years old.
Don’t forget , all living organism are a complex cellular hives . Cells are living things and communicate with each other via microtubules!

@write4u

Just look at the plight of colored people. Their brain is exactly as any other human brain, yet they are prejudiced against because of the color of their skin! Do you expect them to practice selflessness? If not, does that mean they have a selfish Abrahamic mindset?

All that is just a smoke screen, especially since the Abrahamic mindset I’m discussing isn’t about “selfishness vs. altruism” it’s about the way we view/classify the information we acquire.

It’s about perspective way more than anyone these other items you’re bringing up.

Yes, but what does “way more” mean? See, from my perspective it is you who assigns a mysterious abstract property over and above “self-awareness” and “Relationship with the Environment”.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

Of course the brain is completely self-absorbed.

We’ll never get anywhere if you’re constantly all over the map and misstating important details. I’m talking about our mind - the brain is not the same thing as the mind, so using those terms interchangeable misleads and derails.

@write4u

No, that’s too much drama.

Nope, these are well chosen words:

@write4u

So absolutely self-absorbed we’re incapable of assessing anything, from outside of our own needs and expectations.

Narcissism, is a distraction and not what I’m talking about, although I can see the relatedness it’s still missing the point I’m striving to make.

@write4u

What you are describing is Narcissism, but that is a clinical psychosis

No that’s not even close. You are changing the subject.

Physical Reality is the physical world of atoms, molecules, universal laws of physics, biology and Earth’s laws of nature. It is Earth’s dance between geology and biology and time and Earth’s evolving creatures. For this discussion, one in particular, one that learned to contemplate the universe along with its own short life.

Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of our thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts and Being. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical reality and change our planet.

The me, myself and I, and all that unfolds within the thoughts just beyond the biological sparks and chemical cascades unfolding within our physical bodies and brains as they navigate their environments.

@write4u

You are still assigning abilities to the brain it doesn’t have.

Such as?

@write4u

Look up the definitions contained in the term “generosity”. It means a lot more than as commonly used.

So which are you one referring to? Why? How?

@write4u

unless brain has acquired a healthy body

What you think the brain acquires our body, what are you talking about?

You can have a healthy brain in a diseased body and a diseased brain in a healthy body. Both conditions require a “selfish brain” in order to survive.

I was simply taking issue with your terminology “brain acquiring body” and was hoping you might think of the way to phrase these thoughts. What is “(human) brain acquiring body” supposed to mean from within a biological evolutionary perspective?

It’s precisely those kinds of weird formulations that give me pause: and that I see as examples of being trapped within our thoughts, because they so totally miss the substance of the flow of Evolution as science has taught me to understand it.

I don’t understand what you are saying within the context of what I’m trying to discuss. Which is:

“Our relationship between our selves and the knowledge we acquire is rarely examined.”

“Who am I?”

Children and the learned have been fascinated by that question and the mystery of our sense of “self" since forever.
Seems to me as a society our biggest problem is that most are still trapped within the Abrahamic mindset of absolute self-absorption. A bubble where our own thoughts, perceptions and expectations totally engulf our thinking and leaves no space for explicitly recognizing the physical realities beyond our own immediate desires and thoughts - that unrecognized attitude permeates and shackles our understanding of the world around us .

Now suddenly we’re supposed to be arguing about the “selfish brain” - when selfish is pretty much a human turn of phrase, with moralistic implications to boot, and totally within that bubble of our mindscape.

I don’t know what “selfish” really means beyond “territorial imperative” or my drive to survive. Calling it selfish doesn’t help us understand how we got here and what we are, it just adds distracting flourishes, a sort of moralistic legalese, which has become the ‘currency’ our minds depend on. It’s semantics that miss the actual lesson.

Back onto the conception I’m trying to get across:

For all the lectures on the topic, I rarely hear any examination of the relationship between our selves and the knowledge we acquire. That’s a big problem because it blinds us to Earth’s realities and the needs of others, such as this life sustaining biosphere we’re currently destroying as fast as we can.

Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide (2/5)

Perhaps this does a better job of explaining the general object I have in mind:

**The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth;
her material constituents and physical processes, unfolding one day at a time, are our fundamental touchstone with reality.

We acknowledge Earth and glory in understanding her pageant of Evolution and appreciating how that pageant is reflected within our own bodies.**

We find justification in the physical fact that humans were created out of Earth’s processes. …

Actually, I have a specific quote in mind, but not finding it and I’m outta time, so will settle for these, they are in the ball park.

I believe MPC is missing the point. Seems to me, it’s not about attaining some spiritual “transcendent” connection with nature, a la new age, or such.

It’s about realizing that Earth’s Evolution is an actual factual reality, it’s about realizing that all these folds within folds of harmonic complexity actually means something to who we are and how we live.

Deeply appreciating that within myself there are direct roots to achievements hundreds of millions even billions of years ago. Learning about and understanding the outlines of those various folds within folds, that’s emotionally satisfying, so it’s worth it just for that, but there is more.

It’s about truly, deeply, viscerally, grasping that your brain and sense of self, evolved out of the mammalian animal brain and their sense of self, which in turn evolved out of an earlier brain and sense of self, with it’s roots in even more primitive ways of sensing/processing/acting found in the simplest of life forms.

The transcendence is not the object, it’s the learning and accumulating an understanding of the flowing complexity.

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

The transcendence is not the object, it’s the learning and accumulating an understanding of the flowing complexity.

Then why do you so easily dismiss the evolved neural network filled with trillions of little biological computers that communicate with each other and inform the brain of the state of the body, the environment the biome is occupying, the admiration of the extraordinary abilities of other living creatures, and the intimate relationships with other humans, such as playing music or sports in friendly competition.

Then to contemplate that all your “connection to the river of life” is one of the least understood sciences except the knowledge that all information is processed and codified by a network of nano-scale dipolar coils, forwarded to the brain where it is decoded and retranslated into a living experience.

This thread is not about the philosophy of consciousness, it is about the mechanics of consciousness.

You express your wonderment about our connection with earth, I am expressing my wonderment about our internal connections which is a world all in itself and that allows us to experience the exterior world…

This is my brain talking. “I am removed from the world, help me understand”!

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

Then why do you so easily dismiss the evolved neural network filled with trillions of little biological computers that communicate with each other and inform the brain of the state of the body,

Please show me where I have written such stuff.

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

Please show me where I have written such stuff.

Every time I address the function of microtubules, you try to steer the conversation to your relationship with the earth as a more interesting and satisfying engagement.

@citizenschallengev4

**The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth;
her material constituents and physical processes, unfolding one day at a time, are our fundamental touchstone with reality.

I consider myself an impartial “observer” rather than a “participant”.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

@citizenschallengev4

Please show me where I have written such stuff.

Every time I address the function of microtubules, you try to steer the conversation to your relationship with the earth as a more interesting and satisfying engagement.

Your misrepresenting the discussion.
Seems to me you are using your examples to dismiss what I’m trying to get across,
and for my part I’m stunned at how difficult it seems for people to recognize, something so straight forward, what I’m pointing out - especially after centuries (nay millennia) of handwriting over the body-mind mystery, (or conundrum, or “problem”) if you prefer.

I’m trying to get you to acknowledge what I’m talking about
** recognizing the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.**

and it seems to me you keep trying to poop on that with a flood of data that’s interesting and real, but a non sequitur just the same, since I’m not disputing those physical facts, though I may take issues with some of the over-enthusiastic conclusions draw from insufficient data.

Also I feel like you are often claiming I say things, I haven’t, and by avoiding the instances where I point out how your own words are perfect examples of being this “absolutely absorbed” within the human perspective. So we wind up on this merry-go-round.

======

@write4u

@citizenschallengev4

**The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth;
her material constituents and physical processes, unfolding one day at a time, are our fundamental touchstone with reality.

I consider myself an impartial “observer” rather than a “participant”.

Then you get offended if I imply you are an example of what I mean about the Abrahamic Mindset and the being confined within one’s own Mindscape, and incapable of, or unwilling to, recognize the difference between our thoughts unfolding within our minds and the reality unfolding within Earth’s Evolution.

It seems to me the height of folly to define one self as an “impartial observer” - the conceit doesn’t even get close to computing within my own particular mindscape.

[write4u]

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:50, topic:9472”]
I’m trying to get you to acknowledge what
I’m talking about recognizing the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.

I already have, but this is not the thread to discuss it. Look at the thread title!

CC said; Then you get offended if I imply you are an example of what I mean about the Abrahamic Mindset and the being confined within one’s own Mindscape, and incapable of, or unwilling to, recognize the difference between our thoughts unfolding within our minds and the reality unfolding within Earth’s Evolution.

No , I don’t as long as you behave in a civil manner.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:46, topic:9472”]
**The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth;
her material constituents and physical processes, unfolding one day at a time, are our fundamental touchstone with reality.

[quote=“write4u, post:49, topic:9472”]
I consider myself an impartial “observer” rather than a “participant”.>

CC said: It seems to me the height of folly to define one self as an “impartial observer” - the conceit doesn’t even get close to computing within my own particular mindscape.

I don’t think that was a civil exchange.
In my reality you are hijacking this thread!
At least that is how it appears in my objective mindscape!

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

I already have, but this is not the thread to discuss it. Look at the thread title!

It seems we keep going back and forth, but you’re correct this is about microtubules.

Although you still haven’t explained how the tiniest components could be the answer to everything about consciousness, when consciousness isn’t simply about perceiving like a camera observing, but an interaction with life happening within a macroscopic realm.

Let me explain why I think it keeps seeping into this discuss, it’s because I’ve become convinced that a deeper appreciation for this “Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide” is a sort of first base prerequisite, before these realms at the edge of physical and energy down at the realm of the tiniest can really start making sense. All the evidence about microtubules is awesome, but science is still at the blind men feeling up the elephant stage, with grand conclusion being premature.

@write4u

height of folly to define one self as an “impartial observer”

Please think about what you are saying there.

I believe you probably meant something closer to: “striving to be an impartial observer” - willing to doubt yourself - willing to learn from new facts at hand, and such.

Do you really believe there’s something like an “Impartial Observer” - the God’s Eye view?

How can that be when each of us is a self interested human, who above all else must take care of immediate personal needs. On top of that, our state of consciousness is a result of our body interacting with itself and its environment - complex systems on top of complex systems to the max .

Impartial observer sounds to me like there’s some ultimate Point of View, when in the real world everything has its own Point of View. Not that those Points of View can’t agree with each other, yet none are just like the other.

Write, I was knocking the general notion and not you, my apology for being tactless

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

I believe you probably meant something closer to: “striving to be an impartial observer” - willing to doubt yourself - willing to learn from new facts at hand, and such.

But your arrogance of believing your “relationship” to the earth is the preferred philosophy is no better than my efforts to separate subjective emotional attachment and objective dispassionate knowledge of what makes it all work.
Remember I am an atheist and do not believe in a God that has human characteristics.

Do you know what is one impartial objective discipline practised by humans?

Mathematics.

And the human triumphant ability of recognizing and codifying the relational values and interactive functions. that underlie all universal phenomena.

The reason why this is so is because it is a logical property of the universe. It describes everything without prejudice and is the fundamental guiding equation of all interactions between universal relational values and functions.

As to microtubules, this nano-scale self-organizing dipolar coil and its sister filaments are the fundamental biochemical organelles that are responsible for organizing ALL living things on earth.

When a brilliant mind like Roger Penrose takes an interest, I take notice.

If you do not recognize these two facts and instead choose to wrap yourself in a shroud of subjective emotional experience of being alive in this wonderous dynamic vastness, that is fine by me and I’ll not try to convince you to change anything about that personal perspective.

I do expect the same courtesy from you and I am confident that if we can combine both perspectives, our appreciation for the beauty and implacable majesty of the “wholeness” and the knowledge of the “building blocks” that formed the physical foundations on which our imagination rests and allow us to revel in the wholeness and our relationship to it in the first place.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

But your arrogance of believing your “relationship” to the earth is the preferred philosophy is no better than my efforts to separate subjective emotional attachment and objective dispassionate knowledge of what makes it all work.

Recognizing the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide
it isn’t about a relationship with Earth, it’s about recognizing a fundamental fact of our existence.

It’s about our relationship with the knowledge our mind possess!

Why that simple conception evokes so much resistance I find sadly curious.

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

It’s about our relationship with the knowledge our mind possess!

And where in the brain is that knowledge of the Human Mindscape ~~Physical Reality divide located?

And where am I missing that relationship with the knowledge our mind possesses?

And what makes you think I do not recognize fundamental facts of our existence?

IMO, for a simple conception you are engaging in a lot of sophistry without discussing where that Mindscape actually resides and presents itself to our emergent consciousness.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

And where in the brain is that knowledge of the Human Mindscape ~~Physical Reality divide located?

Okay, so it’s my turn to be bummed, have you read anything I’ve shared? How can you ask me where in our brain physical reality resides??? You’ve turned the whole creature into a lump of hamburger. And you wonder why I keep hammering away at this. Until you get at least what I’m say right, I feel I have no other option.

---

The Mindscape is your constellation of thoughts. The stuff brain scans can pick up - but that have no physical substance as such.

Physical Reality is the physical world of atoms, molecules, universal laws of physics, biology and Earth’s laws of nature. It is Earth’s dance between geology and biology and time and Earth’s evolving creatures. For this discussion, one in particular, one that learned to contemplate the universe along with its own short life.

Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of our thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts and Being. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical reality and change our planet.

The me, myself and I, and all that unfolds within the thoughts just beyond the biological sparks and chemical cascades unfolding within our physical bodies and brains as they navigate their environments.

@write4u

And where am I missing that relationship with the knowledge our mind possesses?

By muddling the divide.

@write4u

And what makes you think I do not recognize fundamental facts of our existence?

I didn’t say that.
I wrote : You are not recognizing, perhaps the most fundamental fact of our HUMAN CONDITION.
Those are very different things. But don’t feel bad you are in very good company and a lot of it.

@write4u

IMO, for a simple conception you are engaging in a lot of sophistry without discussing where that Mindscape actually resides and presents itself to our emergent consciousness.

Really? Where do your thoughts exist? It’s that simple.

sophistry = the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

What would the fancy word for self deception be?

Ironically, it’s not an argument I’m presenting, it’s an observation.

But, I also appreciate there’s no way to piss off any person faster than dinging our godalmighty egos and self-conceits. But considering our self-contained ego are one of our bigger problems, one that we still haven’t learned to tame.

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

Really? Where do your thoughts exist? It’s that simple.

That is the subject of this thread and I have already answered that.

Note that I asked you and your answer is : " Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of our thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts and Being. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical reality and change our planet. "

This is a general description that does not tell me anything at all about “where” the human mindscape (consciousness) resides.

The OP suggests the actual place where consciousness (your mindscape) emerges from.

Your memories reside in Pyramidal neurons , your conscious thoughts are processes in the Level III of the brain, but can be disabled by anesthesia. Which factually proves its location of conscious thought (Hameroff).

What you call Mindscape is your “mental conditioning.” and that is a uniquely personal experience for every mind on earth, depending on the environment.

Aboriginal Australians could be the oldest population of humans living outside of Africa, where one theory says they migrated from in boats 70,000 years ago. Australia’s first people—known as Aboriginal Australians—have lived on the continent for over 50,000 years.Jan 31, 2019
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/aboriginal-australians#

Their “mindscape” is very different from a cowboy brought up in Texas, USA or a lama Tibet, East Asia.

lama, Tibetan Bla-ma (“superior one”), in Tibetan Buddhism, a spiritual leader. Originally used to translate “guru” (Sanskrit: “venerable one”) and thus applicable only to heads of monasteries or great teachers, the term is now extended out of courtesy to any respected monk or priest.
Lama | Tibetan Buddhism, Monasticism, Reincarnation | Britannica

But in all these individuals their mindscape resides in the brain and in the neural microtubule network specifically.

I never disparaged your philosophical approach to a conditioned mindset from teaching or a mindscape from interaction with the environment.

This is why I reminded you that you are looking at this from a subjective perspective, whereas I use the objective scientific approach in the physics of any emergent thought process.

We are talking past each other, but I am responding in context of the OP title , whereas you are drifting into a whole different psychological area of mental conditioning that does not address WHERE in the brain all this happens.

It is your use of ad hominem on the purpose of this thread , while you just refuse to address the issue in context of the thread. And that is what is pissing me off.
Please stay on topic.

I am not discounting your area of inquiry at all. All I am saying you are not addressing the issue in context of the OP statement in THIS thread.

If you want to discuss your mindscape, please give me the name of a thread or start one. I’ll be happy to join your mindscape in that threat and you’ll find that my posits will be completely different from what I posit in this thread.

Trust me, I am capable of addressing different perspectives of conscious mental activities. Just don’t try to hijack this thread, ok?

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

@citizenschallengev4

Really? Where do your thoughts exist? It’s that simple.

That is the subject of this thread and I have already answered that.

Microtubules, you say that is that.

So what do we now do with that knowledge.

Write4u, I’ve never meant to disparage microtubules, that’s why I’m going to try to extract my argument from your discussion of microtubules.

@write4u

This is a general description that does not tell me anything at all about “where” the human mindscape (consciousness) resides.

So the physical seat of consciousness is your goal?
And microtubules is your answer?
What about everything else that’s working in coordination (check out Allen Institute), or is the fact that microtubules are a component of all that physical stuff, all there is?

I think it’s a step in the process:

Allen Cell Types Database: Understanding the fundamental building blocks of the brain

Allen Institute, May 14, 2015, 4:34 min

@write4u

The OP suggests the actual place where consciousness (your mindscape) emerges from.

Oh, now that I like, where consciousness emerges from. Can’t argue with that, sure beats a seat of consciousness.

@write4u

Your memories reside in Pyramidal neurons , your conscious thoughts are processes in the Level III of the brain, but can be disabled by anesthesia. Which factually proves its (the) location of conscious thought (Hameroff).

I don’t want to get into an argument, but don’t you think you might be jumping the gun?

I mean I’m constantly coming across stuff that indicates we’re still at the discovery stage and it’s far too early to suggest firm answers, which I think you’re doing.

Glial cells may take on big jobs in unexpected parts of the body

Yes, I know, microtubules are a key component functionally happening, but lets find out how many other things are going on and how many components there actually are.

@write4u

I never disparaged your
philosophical approach to a conditioned mindset from teaching or a mindscape from interaction with the environment.

See, now that’s totally foreign to me, I’ve read it a few times now and honestly don’t know what you are saying, and certainly not how it’s relative to my boring repetitive:

“Appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide”

That’s a simple recognition with eye opening results.

Then down the line, I do start getting into philosophizing a bit, but it’s a cascading consequence and not the big apple.
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@write4u

It is your use of ad hominem on the purpose of this thread,

At that other thread I will ask you to be specific about those instances of ‘ad hominem’ - I would definitely like to look at them and think about them.

@write4u

while you just refuse to address the issue in context of the thread.

As for this thread, my issue has been the framing of discussion:

“Microtubules the seat of Consciousness”

I’ve challenged you with defining how consciousness has a seat?
I love you mentioning that consciousness has an origin - that fixes things.
(Leaving microtubules as important, nay critical, widgets)

I also take issue with this notion that consciousness is somehow a passive receiving thing, at leasts it sounds to me that occasionally you leave such an implication in the air.

Also so take issue with the notion that microtubules, fascinating and fundamental as they may be, are the final answer - at least it sounds like you write that.

We can carry over the discussion to the new thread over on the Humanism board. I’ll share a link once I post it.

[citizenschallengev4]

Oh about where our consciousness resides, how about here:

Prof Hoffman #1 - Mystery - Playing Basketball In Zero-Gravity - The scalpel...

What is the Connectome? Mapping Neurons in the Brain

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

Trust me, I am capable of addressing different perspectives of conscious mental activities. Just don’t try to hijack this thread, ok?

Hey buddy, wish we were having a beer together in an old dusty bar, because I started that new thread, or at least reactivated one I had going.
Then found myself going back to the first post of this thread, so as I could get a link to share over there. Well dang, after losing a sip of beer with an all too juicy gaffaw,

@citizenschallengev4

Structures and Functions of Microtubules

Fair enough, but how do they help us make sense of ourselves, as we negotiate our day to days, and work on making sense of the world we find ourselves within?

But still, I’ll give you squatters right and leave you and your microtubules in peace. That was not a promise not to comment