# Liberals are all crazy (oh wait, fact check) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics and Social Issues\ **Created:** [December 25, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744 "2021-12-25T16:57:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/22 "2021-12-29T02:56:59Z")
> [@triplex69](#): > > Here is a conversation. For conservatives every discussion is reduced to personal responsibility and preparedness for war. Their brains especially turn to muck as soon as Russia or China is mentioned just like some folk around these parts > > [https://youtu.be/rwVSF1L53Gs](https://youtu.be/rwVSF1L53Gs) 😆 It’s like an after school special. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/23 "2021-12-29T03:16:54Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > This is a topic worth pursuing, but I do actually have other things to do. Psychology Today took the study seriously enough to include it in an article, and they did what peer review should do, look at other similar studies. That’s the main mistake oneguy is making, taking a cut and paste conclusion that he doesn’t understand, remembering some conversation he had years ago with a “crazy liberal” and considering his bias confirmed by data. > > Here’s the article, and some quotes: > > [Personality Traits, Mental Illness, and Ideology | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/202103/personality-traits-mental-illness-and-ideology) > > > Kirkegaard suggested that the relationship between mental health and ideology might reflect that conservatives tend to be more religious, and being religious is associated with health benefits (Koenig, 2012), **while admitting that a cross-sectional survey is not very informative regarding causality**. > > > > For example, one study (Gerber et al., 2009), using data from three nationally representative datasets, found that neuroticism was more strongly related to economic than social liberalism. That is, people who **were higher in neuroticism tended to hold left-liberal positions on economic issues** such as higher taxes and government funding for healthcare more strongly than they did on social issues such as abortion and gay rights. > > > > Gerber also concludes: That is, highly neurotic individuals might be more worried about and feel [guilt](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/guilt) **toward the less fortunate;** alternatively, they could be more worried about their own ability to cope with adverse economic circumstances, such as having inadequate health insurance, and therefore support social welfare out of self-interest. And of course, it may be a combination of both. > > > > **Finally, let’s remember to treat mentally ill people with compassion regardless of their ideology**. This is a good find. I agree with the theory that conservatives are more healthy not because they’re religious but because they have different personality traits from liberals. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 3:28am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/24 "2021-12-29T03:28:40Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > These are all mental illnesses. > > I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. I’m saying it doesn’t mean they are nutso-fago in which they need to be institutionalized. While their affect maybe sad or what have you, they present themselves in everyday life as normal as you or anyone on this forum. Depression is the common cold of mental health, as I was taught in my psychology classes. Liberals do report it more because the stigma isn’t there for liberals, like it is for the Right wingers. It does not mean they cannot function in society. Now the Right wingers obviously cannot function well in society, because they have the guns and they attempted a coup. After all of that, you’re saying Liberals are crazy? Crazy is not the word you want for liberals. I would not say they need to be institutionalized, but the liberals I know are quite worse off than the conservatives. They are always physically unimposing, socially awkward and struggle with basic life responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/25 "2021-12-29T03:54:13Z")
@thatoneguy it’s fascinating to watch you take any piece of information and make it fit whatever notion you please. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 4:21am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/26 "2021-12-29T04:21:17Z")
It usually works. Face it, liberals are defective and fortunately you’re dying out. ---
**Author:** ![morgankane01](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/morgankane01/32/28536_2.png) [@morgankane01](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/morgankane01)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 8:38am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/27 "2021-12-29T08:38:04Z")
It seems to me that this sort of exchange reflects more one’s prejudices than scientific knowledge. [[Study finds liberals living longer than conservatives, moderates – Chicago Tribune](https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-hlth-0204-politics-life-span-20150129-story.html)] ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/28 "2021-12-29T13:22:08Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > It usually works. Face it, liberals are defective and fortunately you’re dying out. We’re not. It’s actually the other way around given that many conservatives and right wingers are in their 60s and over. Except for looking for info that fits your view, I have no idea where you get the idea that liberals are dying out. I think it’s wishful thinking, because you are afraid of things like Socialized medicine and alike programs. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/29 "2021-12-29T13:47:34Z")
I just took the first google hit on “classic liberalism”. Let’s say it was born sometime before the American Revolution. Are you saying that was a crazy idea? Are you saying economic freedom and civil society are crazy ideas? Are you saying “liberal” means something completely different now? Please define? [https://theihs.org/initiatives/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATGBBb6VgN6gpF3HCWtaPtg00SkrcUA9wcWfzNqLDS5-YtuUCrifYwoaArOAEALw\_wcB](https://theihs.org/initiatives/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATGBBb6VgN6gpF3HCWtaPtg00SkrcUA9wcWfzNqLDS5-YtuUCrifYwoaArOAEALw_wcB) ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 3:21am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/30 "2021-12-30T03:21:13Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > It usually works. Face it, liberals are defective and fortunately you’re dying out. > > We’re not. It’s actually the other way around given that many conservatives and right wingers are in their 60s and over. Except for looking for info that fits your view, I have no idea where you get the idea that liberals are dying out. I think it’s wishful thinking, because you are afraid of things like Socialized medicine and alike programs. Liberalism only exists among the W.E.I.R.D. population, which is not reproducing. Once they’re gone, so is liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/31 "2021-12-30T03:39:36Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Liberalism only exists among the W.E.I.R.D. So, liberalism did not lead to the French or American revolutions? It was not a response to the monarchies that had spread throughout the world? It didn’t lead to more secular forms of government? You are looking back about 20 years and turning a blind eye to centuries of history. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 3:41am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/32 "2021-12-30T03:41:09Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > I just took the first google hit on “classic liberalism”. Let’s say it was born sometime before the American Revolution. Are you saying that was a crazy idea? Are you saying economic freedom and civil society are crazy ideas? Are you saying “liberal” means something completely different now? Please define? > > [https://theihs.org/initiatives/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATGBBb6VgN6gpF3HCWtaPtg00SkrcUA9wcWfzNqLDS5-YtuUCrifYwoaArOAEALw\_wcB](https://theihs.org/initiatives/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATGBBb6VgN6gpF3HCWtaPtg00SkrcUA9wcWfzNqLDS5-YtuUCrifYwoaArOAEALw_wcB) Most of those values existed before Liberalism. Liberal values are basically individuality, personal freedom and equality and they’re not universal at all. They developed by chance in Northern Europe and have never flourished anywhere else except maybe to a small extent in Japan; but even that is different. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/33 "2021-12-30T03:49:54Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > Liberalism only exists among the W.E.I.R.D. > > So, liberalism did not lead to the French or American revolutions? It was not a response to the monarchies that had spread throughout the world? It didn’t lead to more secular forms of government? > > You are looking back about 20 years and turning a blind eye to centuries of history. France and America are W.E.I.R.D. societies. Monarchies have been replaced in other parts of the globe but not with liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/34 "2021-12-30T04:52:53Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > W.E.I.R.D. population ❓ > [@thatoneguy](#): > > Liberalism only exists among the W.E.I.R.D. population, which is not reproducing. Once they’re gone, so is liberalism. I guess the liberals who have one to two kids are dying out? Please, I really doubt liberals are a dying breed. ---
**Author:** ![morgankane01](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/morgankane01/32/28536_2.png) [@morgankane01](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/morgankane01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 8:54am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/35 "2021-12-30T08:54:03Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Most of those values existed before Liberalism. Liberal values are basically individuality, personal freedom and equality and they’re not universal at all. They developed by chance in Northern Europe and have never flourished anywhere else except maybe to a small extent in Japan; but even that is different. May i remind you that theses values have been engraved in the universal declaration of Human rights, adopted by ONU and signed by its members, even dictatorships and Islamic states. You are right when you say that they are not implemented every where and only imperfectly. You are too much restrictive when you imply that they are not recognized outside European countries. Now, which are the opposite values ? Inequality, deprivation of personal freedoms ? Racism ? Apartheid ? Do you promote them ? Even if the systems are fart from perfect, i prefer to live in a western country where the " liberal values" are implemented than in China, a totalitarian state. The state which rejected these values during the 20th century was the nazi state. To go further, theses values became dominant in Europe, in the 18th century, same time as capitalism. And they are necessary for a functioning market economy, as is an independent legal and court system. But they are shared by socialists and anarchists and every democrat. ---
**Author:** ![triplex69](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/triplex69/32/18_2.png) [@triplex69](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/triplex69)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 9:25am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/36 "2021-12-30T09:25:51Z")
Values are applied to varying degree depending on the situation and class. Principles are fundamental. To quote the great Chomsky “The liberal ideals of the Enlightenment could be realized only in very partial and limited ways in the emerging capitalist order: “Democracy with its mono of equality of all citizens before the law and Liberalism with its right of man over his own person both were wrecked on the realities of capitalist economy,” Rocker correctly observed. Those who are compelled to rent themselves to owners of capital in order to survive are deprived of one of the most fundamental rights: the right to productive, creative and fulfilling work under one’s own control, in solidarity with others. And under the ideological constraints of capitalist democracy, the prime necessity is to satisfy the needs of those in a position to make investment decisions; if their demands are not satisfied, there will be no production, no work, no social services, no means for survival. All necessarily subordinate themselves and their interests to the overriding need to serve the interests of the owners and managers of the society, who, furthermore, with their control over resources, are easily able to shape the ideological system (the media, schools, universities and so on) in their interests, to determine the basic conditions within which the political process will function, its parameters and basic agenda, and to call upon the resources of state violence, when need be, to suppress any challenge to entrenched power. The point was formulated succinctly in the early days of the liberal democratic revolutions by John Jay, the President of the Continental Congress and the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court: “The people who own the country ought to govern it.” And, of course, they do, whatever political faction may be in power. Matters could hardly be otherwise when economic power is narrowly concentrated and the basic decisions over the nature and character of life, the investment decisions, are in principle removed from democratic control.” ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 12:53pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/37 "2021-12-30T12:53:13Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > . Monarchies have been replaced in other parts of the globe but not with liberalism. The problem is, you and I live on different planets It might be that you go by direct experience, rather than a broader historical and geographic view. Check out the entry on the United States. It takes a lengthy entry to explain how “liberal” has a different meaning there than in other places. If you are judging liberals in general based on what Republican politicians say about them, then you will have a very skewed definition. > **[Liberal parties by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_parties_by_country)** > > This article gives information on liberalism worldwide. It is an overview of parties that adhere to some form of liberalism and is therefore a list of liberal parties around the world. > What constitutes a liberal party is highly debatable. In the list below, it is defined as a political party that adheres to the basic principles of political liberalism. This is a broad political current, including left-wing, centrist and right-wing elements. All liberal parties emphasise individual rights, but... ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 3:14am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/38 "2021-12-31T03:14:39Z")
So what? Most countries have fans of Jazz also. They aren’t most people and they aren’t in positions of power. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 3:26am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/39 "2021-12-31T03:26:02Z")
> [@triplex69](#): > > Values are applied to varying degree depending on the situation and class. Principles are fundamental. > To quote the great Chomsky > > “The liberal ideals of the Enlightenment could be realized only in very partial and limited ways in the emerging capitalist order: “Democracy with its mono of equality of all citizens before the law and Liberalism with its right of man over his own person both were wrecked on the realities of capitalist economy,” Rocker correctly observed. Those who are compelled to rent themselves to owners of capital in order to survive are deprived of one of the most fundamental rights: the right to productive, creative and fulfilling work under one’s own control, in solidarity with others. And under the ideological constraints of capitalist democracy, the prime necessity is to satisfy the needs of those in a position to make investment decisions; if their demands are not satisfied, there will be no production, no work, no social services, no means for survival. All necessarily subordinate themselves and their interests to the overriding need to serve the interests of the owners and managers of the society, who, furthermore, with their control over resources, are easily able to shape the ideological system (the media, schools, universities and so on) in their interests, to determine the basic conditions within which the political process will function, its parameters and basic agenda, and to call upon the resources of state violence, when need be, to suppress any challenge to entrenched power. The point was formulated succinctly in the early days of the liberal democratic revolutions by John Jay, the President of the Continental Congress and the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court: “The people who own the country ought to govern it.” And, of course, they do, whatever political faction may be in power. Matters could hardly be otherwise when economic power is narrowly concentrated and the basic decisions over the nature and character of life, the investment decisions, are in principle removed from democratic control.” Chomsky may be right about some things, but not this. The idea that capitalism refutes liberalism is nonsense. Liberalism could not even exist without capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744/40 "2021-12-31T04:04:37Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Most countries have fans of Jazz also That’s not why supplied the link [Previous page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/liberals-are-all-crazy-oh-wait-fact-check/8744.md?page=1)