Alright!
Too exhausted to make war.
Is that why the Christian Alt-right hates sexuality?
Rat you miss the point because you didn’t really answer anything, only dodged it.
And the point about free will making things meaningless is that without choice things just feel inevitable. Calling something a surprise would just mean that you didn’t foresee it, but obviously there were a series of causes leading up to. But that aside, no free will just makes us seem like robots. We are just enacting programming and not really deciding anything. At that point would there really be any worth in living?
But this is all way off topic since my issue was about the self, or the claim that there isn’t one. I know Buddhist text often just asks “who is drinking the tea”. Not sure what they lead with that into but the idea is that “The who” we think we are (mothers, doctors, teachers, etc) is just a story we tell ourselves and that when you get beyond “surface mental processes” you find that at the core of your being you are more than the story. Which doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying you are a mother and you are not from how their stuff reads. Such knowledge is supposed to help but it just hurts me, like all of Buddhism. I mean there was a side bit about not conceptualizing art (photography) in their example) which kind of saps the magic from it
I started a thread in the “Science and Technology” section on Free Will. I’ll discuss that there if you want. But I’m not going to keep switching topics with you. You need to invest yourself in getting to conclusions or you are just wasting everyone’s time. Which is not all bad, I could be doing worse things. Anyway.
Same goes for the self. The questions you ask have answers. The problems you express have been expressed a thousand times before and you can sort this stuff out, if you want. It’s you who keeps dodging what others are saying. I may be dodging you now, but only because I’ve tried before and you have shown that you aren’t serious about any of this.
So, let me know. Pick one of the questions I listed earlier and start working on it.
Here, here, Lausten. Not to change the subject,
<p style=“text-align: center;”>
</p>
@PatrickD
Bonobos are our nearest species relatives along (tied) with Chimps. We are about 98.7% the same DNA-wise with Bonobos and the same % with Chimps, only our differences with each species, are not the same differences. I wonder whether humans who are on the political right tend to have more Chimp genes dominant, while lefties tend to have more Bonobo genes dominant.
Oh, to tie in with this thread, I should say does it matter about other primates, when whatever makes us, us, is also the totality of the universe and such, if it is? Yes, I should say so. Bonobo lives matter. Chimp lives? I guess.
The pessimism of strength sounds like a privileged mode of thinking.
But the free will issue is another topic altogether and not the problem I’m getting. It’s about the issue of there not being a self, that “who you really are” doesn’t exist, which for me means there isn’t a reliable guide when it comes to living. Buddhism calls it just a story, so what does that mean? When I befriend someone or fall in love it just like the story behind the person? If I want to save someone , “who” and I saving and in that case is there anyone to help? If I could figure this out on my own I wouldn’t be asking anywhere else’s
Stories? That sounds about right. Stories tend to be based on something that exists. Some are nonfiction. Some are fantasy.
“privileged mode of thinking” interesting concept, what does it mean?
“When I befriend someone or fall in love it just like the story behind the person?”
I don’t know, might have just as well had to do with the way they smelled, though you don’t even recognize it (Pheromone and stuff like that), but what’s wrong with that? Sometimes it’s just a look that tingles something inside of you and makes the heart rate jump - what is it? I haven’t a clue, but do I know its real. YES indeed.
Seems to me a truly lived life is all about exploring yourself, what you are, what you aren’t, what’s transient, what’s lasting, what’s gone into the layering that created this SELF that you are, but you choose to deny that. You’re are putting yourself through incredible mental stress and turmoil - you can even feel the pain and confusion (at least your words lead me to believe this) - Well buddy WELCOME TO THE SELF, if you tried making peace with it, rather than denying it’s existence, it might not force you through all this existential handwringing and help you get on with living a life that’s “Present” to your surroundings.
Xian with things you write, I’m always coming back to that moment I did manage the much hyped "losing my ‘self’ " in the universal silence and it sucked - That stuff is for after death. Right now I did have a living breathing SELF, body and intellect and emotions, that was changing everyday, and always would, and someday it would be gone and forgotten. But I still had this moment, that was a couple decades back, and I still have this moment, and this self that I been working on since I watched dust motes floating around as a toddler, always growing, always changing a little but certainly my little ol unique self in action.
Very Early I realized basically, life’s meaning is what you want it to be.
I wanted my life to be interesting, exciting, heroic even, there was something driving it, that something was the self that came together, Egg,Sperm,Cosmic jolt, roots going way back, but my birth was a new day - a roll of dice for that particular self that came out of my mother.
Oh and I think my doggie has a Self too 
opps, sorry Xain.
I don’t think any of that is right. If you look at the link I posted on the list page it says that the self is little more than a story. It doesn’t exist out there, only in your mind. That’s what troubles me. If there is nothing to live by or follow then how does one live?
I am skeptical as to whether Maddy has a sense of self. I cannot rule it out, but I doubt that dogs have complex enuf verbal behavior. They are definitely social enuf, and with humans they can be in many years of a dependent or interdependent relationship, but their early neurological formulation time is so short. In humans, the acquisition of optimal verbal behavior occurs when the baby and toddlers brains are forming a million connections a second, and it still takes years for the complex verbal behavior to develop. If the window of accelerated brain development is missed, the verbal behavior development is limited. And afaik dogs don’t show that they have complex verbal behavior. Maybe they communicate in a more complex way than we have been able to discern or imagine, perhaps by virtue of their heightened senses such as smelling and hearing. But I am skeptical. But even tho I doubt that Maddy has a well formed sense of herself, I am sure that she has a very well formed sense of you, CC. Now, if you would just quit moving to a different line of sight, when she’s not looking.
Well, my doggie certainly has a self, and a personality. I can always tell when he’s annoyed with me because he destroys things, or does his best. I once had a German Shepherd who would wee on my bed if I dared bring another female into the house.
“life’s meaning is what you want it to be”’
A very interesting comment. My first reaction was to contradict. Then I thunk . I think you’re probably right.
It is my perception that our most powerful convictions tend to have a strong emotional component. I think it’s probably true that inside many atheists is a really disappointed or pissed off deist.
I think it’s probably true that most if not all people find/choose a meaning to life which suits them. The notion of a loving God and eternal bliss is very attractive, and requires minimal reflection.
Atheists are a tiny minority of humans on the planet,. As far as I can tell, religious belief tends to be an accident of birth, which most people never question. It’s a tidy package, which is inculcated before the age of reason, and put into a convenient little box, where it remains.
It is also my belief that Joe Six Pack spends very little time in his life pondering metaphysical questions.
Me? I began seriously looking for reason when I was 16. Wasn’t satisfied-ish until I was over 50. The conclusion to which I led myself is that the meaning of life is itself. IE. life reproduces itself. That’s it.
I don’t believe Atheism is an inescapable rational choice. If that were true, there would be a great many more of us.
The above is just a statement of position. It 's not the premiss fora discussion/argument. It suits me, and I have no interest in changing anyone’s mind.
Xian, somebody tells the story, and somebody listens. The listener could be someone else, or it could be you as both the story teller and the listener. Either way, there is a you, else there would be no story.
It doesn’t exist out there, only in your mind.What's that mean? Do you live in a void? I mean does your life interact with others. Seems that everything you do is a reflection of your self one way or the other. Pat and Tim say some of it better, but you don't seem to absorb any of it, even though it's well meaning, you keep giving authority to someone else's words on a paper.
This is perfect. Want to see life through metaphors - why not - (Tim) Xian, somebody tells the story, and somebody listens. The listener could be someone else, or it could be you as both the story teller and the listener. Either way, there is a you, else there would be no story.It's actually kind of funny, just thought of sitting with my Dad as he breathed his last breath. The thing that popped into my mind, Here it finishes, now the book closes. I mean a deep down sense of our lives as a story book and the day we die, the last page closes and we become bits and pieces of other people's stories.
And I’m good with that/
Tim, it’s possible I simply have a lower threshold of “Self” - I see it in most living things, to a greater or lesser extent. Survival requires more than instinctive reflect, it requires an active engagement with a rapidly changing environment, always has.
Even plants, think of the discoveries regarding forest fungus and interplant communication, and the interplay of countless elements. I firmly believe Evolution/Creation has some sort of awareness, that permeates all its creations depending on their complexity.
(Nothing else left for me after a life time of filling my head with bits and pieces of information about our Earth’s Evolutionary story, not to mention the other universal evolution that set things up. What it is? Who knows? Don’t even care. It’s not important, living with the day is important, and that’s impossible without having a sense of self. And self-preservation.
Oh here’s one to chew on: Does a sense of self-preservation provide proof of the sense of self?
CC, TimB and Patrick D;
Thanks for your input on this thread.
The pessimism of strength sounds like a privileged mode of thinking.Did I miss something? When did this get introduced? And why? I assume you are talking about Nietzsche. I haven't read The Gay Science, where he covers pessimism, although I could not find specifically where he introduces this idea. As for it being "privileged", isn't that the whole philosophical concept of pessimism? Privilege. If you are struggling to survive, you don't have time to contemplate your miserable life and what you haven't done and how you're just going to die anyway.
But, in my brief study on this concept, I was most struck by Nietzsche’s diagnosis that people aren’t pessimistic because they examine their life and find reasons to be so, instead they view the world in some underlying way that leads them to pessimism. As Xian has pointed out, choosing to be an optimist could be just as weak of a position, if you are choosing it only to avoid thinking about a future that you aren’t expecting to be happy about.
I wonder if you, Xian, came across this when you discovered this “pessimism of strength” thing, because it fits you to a tee. You are trying to solve this puzzle of the self because you think it leads to some feelings you don’t like, but really, you need to look at what’s underlying that. What is your view of the universe that has led to thinking these things about the self. You are not the first one to ask, “If there is nothing to live by or follow then how does one live?” But you are the most stubborn person I’ve ever met for considering that there might be some decent responses to that.
Atheism would only be an “inescapably rational choice” for someone who is very predominantly rational. However, humans are notoriously irrational. Rationality is a recently developed ability in our long evolutionary history. Emotionality goes WAY BACK. It is a deep deep rooted essence of the animal creatures that we are.
What % of humans are very predominantly rational? If it’s 7%, then that’s about the same as the % of atheists in the world.
“What % of humans are very predominantly rational? If it’s 7%, then that’s about the same as the % of atheists in the world.”
Sounds about right. As much as I’d like to, I’m unable to claim it’s same people in both cases. I’ve run across some very angry and very irrational atheists. The term " butt hurt former believer" come to mind.
I don’t think you guys get it. You keep saying there is a self when the links I have given show there isn’t one, just a story in our heads. There is no listener to the story as well. You guys just seem to keep saying “yes there is” when the links I give show “no there isn’t”.
Which leads me to the next aspect about how if there isn’t a core “you” to follow, then why do things? I mean if there is no “who I really am” then there really isn’t any stable guide to live by. I mean I know the link says consciousness, but to me that’s just nonsense. As if a product of the brain really gives any guide here. Truth be told there haven’t been any good responses in history to the “if there is nothing to live by or follow then how does one live” question.