Vyazma,
I think it’s good to know what is causing our disagreement.
I believe what is going on is you think the correct way of interpreting CHDO is as it is in LFW.
GdB and I think there is another interpretation which makes sense of why we would have evolved to be interested in what else people could have done, when judging each other.
Because of this we think there is a mistake over CHDO, an intellectual error that can be corrected by understanding how to interpret
CHDO. We also think correcting the error has positive implications.
You, on the other hand, see no such correct interpretation and so see CHDO as this hardwired complete fiction, impossible to eradicate.
This is a late response, but just wanted to point out that I edited and helped rewrite an academic book on the Yanoamami Tribe around 1990. Fascinating project. You are certainly right to ask where it would have originated from. Of course, some would say it had to be God's plan. LoisThevillageatheist - 06 September 2014 01:22 PM Scary, belief that revenge can be justified is at the root of a great deal of killing and suffering in general. And has been since primates jumped out of the trees. Our distant cousins are still doing it actually. It’s a developed pattern of group behavior inherent in most societies. The question is how do we as a modern species break out of the mold? Written laws and the ability to enforce them helps but we have to somehow deprogram ourselves from the whole idea of revenge killing. Ideas anyone? Cap’t Jack Evolution? LoisNo Lois, divine plan. Hell yes, evolution. Group behavior allowed us to survive competition with other groups for resources and yes even the lower primates exibit revenge killing. For primitive societies it was the norm; you steal my women, I steal yours. You kill one of my kinsman, I kill one of yours and on and on. For a glaring example of this current behavior read anything by Napoleon Chagnon concerning the behavior of the Yanomamo Indians. It's a classic example of group behavior, by family ties (blood feuds), tribes and nations. There were 38 blood feuds in our local area alone in the last Century and hundreds were killed. Where else would it have originated from? Cap't Jack
Oh, I missed this. Well what you do is remove what is supposed to be the justification.Scary, belief that revenge can be justified is at the root of a great deal of killing and suffering in general.And has been since primates jumped out of the trees. Our distant cousins are still doing it actually. It's a developed pattern of group behavior inherent in most societies. The question is how do we as a modern species break out of the mold? Written laws and the ability to enforce them helps but we have to somehow deprogram ourselves from the whole idea of revenge killing. Ideas anyone? Cap't Jack
Capital punishment is by definition, inhumane.
Capital punishment is by definition, inhumane.This. Doesn't matter war form of capital punishment you choose, the act is inhumane. QED.
This. Doesn’t matter war form of capital punishment you choose, the act is inhumane. QED.I totally agree but this leaves us with the problem of warehousing those tens of thousands of psychopaths for the remainder of their lives. Here's where we weigh human life against the cost factor. Prisons cost millions of dollars to build and maintain and the inmates must live out their lives there with no hope of parole. They must be fed, clothed and guarded 24-7 and once they're safely locked away we must, through our taxes maintain them until death. Is there an alternative? Cap't Jack
It's been proven many times that the costs of maintaining the death penalty are greater than keeping criminals in prison for life. It seems counterintuitive, but it's true. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfactsThis. Doesn’t matter war form of capital punishment you choose, the act is inhumane. QED.I totally agree but this leaves us with the problem of warehousing those tens of thousands of psychopaths for the remainder of their lives. Here's where we weigh human life against the cost factor. Prisons cost millions of dollars to build and maintain and the inmates must live out their lives there with no hope of parole. They must be fed, clothed and guarded 24-7 and once they're safely locked away we must, through our taxes maintain them until death. Is there an alternative? Cap't Jack
I cannot believe you are putting a price on human life, as if it is a commodity, especially since innocent people are on death row. But since you brought up such a repugnant and morally indefensible idea, death row appeals cost more than housing a prisoner for life. Look it up for yourself. As for your "tens of thousands" number, there have been 1389 executions n the United States since 1976. source]. You should check the facts before spouting unconscionable opinions.This. Doesn’t matter war form of capital punishment you choose, the act is inhumane. QED.I totally agree but this leaves us with the problem of warehousing those tens of thousands of psychopaths for the remainder of their lives. Here's where we weigh human life against the cost factor. Prisons cost millions of dollars to build and maintain and the inmates must live out their lives there with no hope of parole. They must be fed, clothed and guarded 24-7 and once they're safely locked away we must, through our taxes maintain them until death. Is there an alternative? Cap't Jack
I cannot believe you are putting a price on human life, as if it is a commodity, especially since innocent people are on death row. But since you brought up such a repugnant and morally indefensible idea, death row appeals cost more than housing a prisoner for life. Look it up for yourself. As for your "tens of thousands" number, there have been 1389 executions n the United States since 1976. source]. You should check the facts before spouting unconscionable opinions. That's 1389 more than there would have been if the US were a civilized and humane nation. LLThis. Doesn’t matter war form of capital punishment you choose, the act is inhumane. QED.I totally agree but this leaves us with the problem of warehousing those tens of thousands of psychopaths for the remainder of their lives. Here's where we weigh human life against the cost factor. Prisons cost millions of dollars to build and maintain and the inmates must live out their lives there with no hope of parole. They must be fed, clothed and guarded 24-7 and once they're safely locked away we must, through our taxes maintain them until death. Is there an alternative? Cap't Jack
I cannot believe you are putting a price on human life, as if it is a commodity, especially since innocent people are on death row. But since you brought up such a repugnant and morally indefensible idea, death row appeals cost more than housing a prisoner for life. Look it up for yourself. As for your “tens of thousands" number, there have been 1389 executions n the United States since 1976. source. You should check the facts before spouting unconscionable opinions.Ok, I see the hot button statement in my post. Let me back up and try this again. First of all, I agree that capital punishment should be outlawed as I've posted many times before, even in my original post to you. Now let me back up and state this a little differently, there are 200,000 prisons in this country, local state and national warehousing over four million prisoners and the number is climbing. We now incarcerate more people than any other nation and at great expense. Pardoning those convicted of minor crimes, e.g. Drug possession will help but those convicted of capital crimes will never be pardoned. They will be there until death. My question was valid. Do we keep building more maximum security prisons to house future psychopaths or find an alternative and now that we have eliminated the death penalty, once again a good idea, do you have another solution to the problem? Rehabilitation won't work. You can't rehabilitate a psychopath and extreme forms of chemical and surgical methods are rightly considered inhumane. In the meantime more prisoners are flooding the already overcrowded prisons. Without a solution more prisons will be built, stuffed to capacity and become hell holes, a condition I consider inhumane. And whether you like it or not they are tremendously expensive to build and maintain. So, where do we go from here? That was my original question, I didn't mean to imply that one of the alternatives was the death penalty. Cap't Jack
Glad to hear that, TVA. Looking back on it the post was uncharacteristic of you.
Where do we go from here? We stop privatizing prisons, turning them into profit centers. Then we stop the failed war on drugs and implement social reforms to mete equal justice for all instead of harsh sentences for impoverished minorities and slaps on the wrists for rich white dudes. Finally, we take the money we currently spend on prisons and allocate the funds to childhood education so poor people and minorities can become productive citizens instead of turning to crime out of desperation and frustration.
The first thing we have to do is vote out all the Republicans and Libertarians.
I never said it would be easy.
How do civilized countries handle this problem? All of the European and Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and Japan, for example. Why is it that they can manage their criminal justice systems without the death penalty and without the percentage of the population incarcerated as in the US? Can't we do what they do? They seem to have the answer. Our populations aren't that different. What are they doing that we aren't doing? Or what are they not doing that we are doing? What they have worked out the US seems incapable of. Why is the US always so far behind other countries in so many areas? LoisI cannot believe you are putting a price on human life, as if it is a commodity, especially since innocent people are on death row. But since you brought up such a repugnant and morally indefensible idea, death row appeals cost more than housing a prisoner for life. Look it up for yourself. As for your “tens of thousands" number, there have been 1389 executions n the United States since 1976. source. You should check the facts before spouting unconscionable opinions.Ok, I see the hot button statement in my post. Let me back up and try this again. First of all, I agree that capital punishment should be outlawed as I've posted many times before, even in my original post to you. Now let me back up and state this a little differently, there are 200,000 prisons in this country, local state and national warehousing over four million prisoners and the number is climbing. We now incarcerate more people than any other nation and at great expense. Pardoning those convicted of minor crimes, e.g. Drug possession will help but those convicted of capital crimes will never be pardoned. They will be there until death. My question was valid. Do we keep building more maximum security prisons to house future psychopaths or find an alternative and now that we have eliminated the death penalty, once again a good idea, do you have another solution to the problem? Rehabilitation won't work. You can't rehabilitate a psychopath and extreme forms of chemical and surgical methods are rightly considered inhumane. In the meantime more prisoners are flooding the already overcrowded prisons. Without a solution more prisons will be built, stuffed to capacity and become hell holes, a condition I consider inhumane. And whether you like it or not they are tremendously expensive to build and maintain. So, where do we go from here? That was my original question, I didn't mean to imply that one of the alternatives was the death penalty. Cap't Jack
Why is the US always so far behind other countries in so many areas? LoisThe Religious Right controls Republican primaries.
While we debate this, Oklahoma unveils new death chamber].
PS. Here are the countries with the death penalty. We’re in such good company, aren’t we?
I made a mistake in my previous post. Japan still has the Death Penalty.
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Chad
China (People’s Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Gambia
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malaysia
Nigeria
North Korea
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
South Sudan
Sudan
Syria
Taiwan
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Vietnam
Yemen
Zimbabwe
Why is the US always so far behind other countries in so many areas? LoisThe Religious Right controls Republican primaries. And Republicans, apparently. I want to think this is the only reason, but I think there must be more to it. Lois
Why is the US always so far behind other countries in so many areas? LoisThe Religious Right controls Republican primaries. And Republicans, apparently. I want to think this is the only reason, but I think there must be more to it. Lois I am sure there is more to it, but everyone I know who supports the death penalty is a conservative Republican and a Christian. I'm not a sociologist and I've never played one on television, so take this with a large grain of salt.
While we debate this, Oklahoma unveils new death chamber].Yes, another "Christian" state. Lois
Why is the US always so far behind other countries in so many areas? LoisThe Religious Right controls Republican primaries. And Republicans, apparently. I want to think this is the only reason, but I think there must be more to it. Lois I am sure there is more to it, but everyone I know who supports the death penalty is a conservative Republican and a Christian. I'm not a sociologist and I've never played one on television, so take this with a large grain of salt. I would support the death penalty, in theory, in certain extremely limited cases, if it could be applied justly and equitably, and if it could always be applied with absolutely no execution of persons who are, in reality, not guilty. Neither of those two "ifs" are in effect in our country, nor, do I suspect, can they ever be. Hence, we should immediately ban the death penalty.
Huh, this thread took off with enthusiasm, didn’t it?