When corporations like Apple have access to your personal info, it's just the free market in action. When the government has it, it's Big Brother watching you and repressing you and building FEMA Death Camps where they send you if they don't like what they see. In my mind, the good and bad are the more the other way around (maybe my Canadianness is to blame.)No it's not your Canadianess 3Point. It's your common sense.(although it might help a little) There's plenty of Americans who think this way too. What has it come to when people are more beholden to a brand then they are their own country? Apple markets their phones as being resistant to some evil Big Brother Bogeyman. And people wait in line for hours and pay out the nose for this. Consumerism.
They’re so bold. Do they realize that they are taunting one of the most Liberal Judicial systems in the world?
They’re lucky they aren’t getting the taste of a real Big Brother.
They’d be in a jail.
They’re real tough standing up to this system. Whooo!
A system that allowed them to make Billions!!!
When corporations like Apple have access to your personal info, it's just the free market in action. When the government has it, it's Big Brother watching you and repressing you and building FEMA Death Camps where they send you if they don't like what they see. In my mind, the good and bad are the more the other way around (maybe my Canadianness is to blame.)No it's not your Canadianess 3Point. It's your common sense.(although it might help a little)... Although it goes against my drive to defeat false narratives, "Blame Canada!" does have a certain ring to it. And who doesn't need a convenient scapegoat from time to time?
If hacking Apple devices was that easy it would have been done already. Ask any IT security expert about Android phones.Ditto! psik
I basically agree. I'm no defender of corporations, but I don't think the government should be able to force one to build a device to do their job for them. If the governmental agencies don't have the wherewithal, to do this themselves, perhaps they should promote legislation to ban the original device capability that is causing the problem. And if that doesn't fly, then we will all just have to live (or die) with terrorists having the capability to communicate privately. However, I disagree that a hacker would be able to break the Apple code in minutes. As I understand it, they need to defeat the mechanism that limits guessing the code to ten tries, after which the data is gone forever. If they have unlimited tries, they can use a very powerful computer to keep guessing at the code, until it is found. What the govt wants, now, is for Apple to create a mechanism that will defeat the 10 try limit mechanism.Legally the government doesn't have a leg to stand on. Apple is neither a suspect nor a material witness to the case. I doubt Apple can be required to provide the FBI with a way to get into the phone. Legally Apple is an innocent bystander. Sure, it would be nice if Apple were to offer to help, but they have good reasons to keep their privacy system a secret.I believe them when they say they can't undo it. Now the FBI is demanding that they develop software to do it. That is an outrageous and downright unConstitutional demand, IMO. Of course I'd like the FBI to be able to get the information, but we are a nation of laws. Even corporations are protected by laws and by the Constitution--and that's exactly as it should be. Neither the FBI nor the US government is a dictator. The US has more to lose than to gain by trying to force Apple or any corporation or individual to bend to its will. Also, I think a clever hacker COULD figure out a way to defeat the mechanism--maybe not in minutes, but in a reasonable amount of time. The FBI should offer a few million dollars to anyone who can do it. The hacker wouldn't have to hack the phone the FBI has. All he'd have to do is figure out a way to hack into ANY Apple phone withn the same 10-try limit mechanism. And the FBI would save money on trying through the courts to force Apple to figure out a way to defeat the mechanism. Apple is not party to the crime and it should be no more liable than the manufacturer of the guns used in the attack are. (In fact, less so.) Lois
If Apple already has a way to over-ride the protection device, then the story IS different. But do they? That they haven't said that they don't, could mean they do. Or it could mean that they don't want to admit that they don't.Does anyone really doubt that Apple doesn't already know how to access info on any phone they make? I'll be gobsmacked if their phones are absolutely secure. I naturally don't know for sure, but it would be hard to imagine anyone ever making a system that even they can't break into. But the story is that they don't want to even try to help - whether they already can is less relevant to me than their position on the matter. An unhappy consequence of Apple's attitude is that if they decide to help and fail, many will doubt their sincerity and the effort they put into helping. Marketing their products is their only goal in life, so maybe they should have thought of all the consequences of their (in)actions. Since they haven't said they don't have the over-ride capability, if I had to bet, I would bet that they do. I don't know Apple's mission statement, but like most corporations, I suspect that the bottom line is to make as much money as they can possibly get away with making. So, I imagine that, they will, ultimately, do whatever will most likely lead to that result. But generally, throughout the tech community, I suspect that there are plenty of individuals who are genuinely concerned about issues of privacy and confidentiality vs. the security of society as a whole. No matter how much we hate big corporations, they do have their rights, just as individuals do. And our economy needs them and their capitalistic ways. As underhanded as they might be, the US (and we) cannot survive without them. We all love to demonize them, but they are not wrong on every issue. They do have a legal point to make and on the legal issues, I think Apple is right. Lois
No, using your analogy, the landlord would have built an absolutely unbeatable secure system that allows no entry by anyone other than the tenant. (And that is, BTW, part of the reason the tenant chose that apartment.) Then the police, (continuing with your analogy), would be requiring the landlord, to, now, create a new device that would overcome the, unbeatable, security system, that the landlord used to market the apartment to the renter, to begin with.) Not so basic, as you suggest.Well we don't know that. Point taken, but we don't know that. Frankly I'm not buying it though. I believe it is just as simple as "getting the key" analogy. Obviously Apple would want to market their security system as such....we do know that. And why shouldn't they be able to do that! They have broken no law. Marketing and protecting secrets is not against the law, nor is refusing to cooperate with any investigatve agency when they are neither party nor witness to the crime being investigated. Lois
When corporations like Apple have access to your personal info, it's just the free market in action. When the government has it, it's Big Brother watching you and repressing you and building FEMA Death Camps where they send you if they don't like what they see. In my mind, the good and bad are the more the other way around (maybe my Canadianness is to blame.)No it's not your Canadianess 3Point. It's your common sense.(although it might help a little) There's plenty of Americans who think this way too. What has it come to when people are more beholden to a brand then they are their own country? Apple markets their phones as being resistant to some evil Big Brother Bogeyman. And people wait in line for hours and pay out the nose for this. Consumerism. Which our economy can't survive without. We have to live with it or we'll all go bankrupt. Lois
Does anyone really doubt that Apple doesn't already know how to access info on any phone they make? I'll be gobsmacked if their phones are absolutely secure. I naturally don't know for sure, but it would be hard to imagine anyone ever making a system that even they can't break into.Why would any company waste time and money developing methods to hack their own products? Software engineers make a lot of money, especially in Silicon Valley, and dedicating a team of engineers to access info on smart phones would be a tremendous waste of resources.
But the story is that they don't want to even try to help - whether they already can is less relevant to me than their position on the matter. An unhappy consequence of Apple's attitude is that if they decide to help and fail, many will doubt their sincerity and the effort they put into helping. Marketing their products is their only goal in life, so maybe they should have thought of all the consequences of their (in)actions.I don't know where you heard Apple does not want to help the FBI, but the opposite is true. They've been working with the FBI all along, but few the line at writing a new OS to bypass existing security features.
I vote for net freedom, and all protections that safe guard my right to be secure in person and property from fishing expeditions of federal, state, or local police.This isn't a fishing expedition. This is the recovered phone from a mass murderer. It's physical evidence.
I don't know where you heard Apple does not want to help the FBI, but the opposite is true. They've been working with the FBI all along, but few the line at writing a new OS to bypass existing security features.2 things Darron. I heard that Apple doesn't want to cooperate directly from the US government. They have issued statements that Apple doesn't want to cooperate. How's that for clarity? Secondly..."but few the line at writing a new OS". What the heck does this mean?
Here’s the problem as I see it. Your phone is not just a phone. These devices are used for everything. They are used to store and make financial transactions. They have all of our contacts. There are to-do lists on them and while many people don’t know this they store a record of every place you have every been.
There is a lot of information on your phone about who you are and what you have done. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that even the most innocent bread crumbs can lead someone to draw the wrong conclusions. Post-hoc analysis is fraught with potential for abuse in law enforcement in the same way that it can lead to erroneous conclusions in science.
There are other issues here too. There are lots of things that people do which are not illegal but at the same time very private. A cell phone may contain photos or communications between individuals that involve unethical, immoral, socially unacceptable or embarrassing activities which are not at all illegal. Such information falling into the hands of law enforcement cold do tremendous damage to someone or cold be used as leverage to violate that individuals rights ( ie. Admit that you unwittingly helped a terrorist or we tell your wife that you visit brothels)
This isn’t like giving police a one time warrant to search someones home. This is giving them an open door to examine everyone’s life.
I know MacGeyver. I was wondering when you were going to chime in. The government just wants to examine everyone's life. They want to look at your private photos. Or really just start collecting data on dissenters like you. Putting it away in files. Keeping tabs on you right? I take it you still think Snowden did the right thing too? Remember how you passionately argued in favor of Snowden's actions. You're taking part in the dumbing down of America. You're part of the "me me me" attitude. Nobody want's to look at your photos or collect your data(except Apple!). They want to prevent more horrible killings. But I guess you come first? "You you you."I won't edit this out. But I kinda think I was rude here. I'm sorry. I got emotional. I believe very strongly in Big Government. I won't edit it out 'cause that's cowardly. I mean every word of this...but I could have been more tactful. So...yeah. Your argument has no merits. It's based on fear and emotion. The government has gone through the proper channels every step of the way. They're using the courts. I don't know what you want....I don't think you do either.
How about this narrative: “Those who will sacrifice freedom for the sake of security, deserve neither.” True or False? (Discuss amongst yourselves.)
These devices are used for everything. They are used to store and make financial transactions. They have all of our contacts. There are to-do lists on them and while many people don't know this they store a record of every place you have every been.Yeah, hello? You mean all the stuff any government has every right to obtain a search warrant on? "These devices are used for everything." Yeah, no kidding!
Such information falling into the hands of law enforcement cold do tremendous damage to someone or cold be used as leverage to violate that individuals rights ( ie. Admit that you unwittingly helped a terrorist or we tell your wife that you visit brothels)The cops already have the power to do this through many outlets. They have done it occasionally for centuries. The fact that this happens(very infrequently in the US) doesn't necessitate the exclusion of a device you just admitted has tons of information on it that could be seriously useful to the police.
This isn't like giving police a one time warrant to search someones home. This is giving them an open door to examine everyone's life.Hyperbole much? Get someone else to make the argument Mac...
No one seems to focus on the fact that once the code is broken anyone might get access to it–that means the US government, other governments, including the governmemts of our enemies, identity thieves, terrorists and who knows who else? Are all of you comfortable knowing that the most private, possibly most intimate nformation on your iPhone or someone else’s supposedly secure iPhone will be available to ANYONE who wants it–people you would not want accessing your private information? Don’t fool yourselves that there would be technology in place to prevent that. Once the cat’s out of the bag there is no putting it back in.
I don’t know if there are any 2nd amendment types here but they have often said they fear our own government knowing who has guns. With the privacy controls removed, any information about gun ownership that found its way onto phones will be PUBLIC INFORMATION available to the big bad US government, who we know will come to confiscate their guns, and will also be available to any foreign government or terrorist organization who wants to know who has guns and where they are. In addition, who thinks terrorist organizations won’t find a way to access your private information and a lot of other information no one in his right mind would want them to know? Is that what you all want? You have NO concerns about that? And don’t think that deleting everything sensitive from your own phone will protect you. Once that information is in someone else’s phone you won’t be able to delete it. It will be available for anyone to access. It won’t matter if YOU don’t have an iPhone. Your information is probably on someone else’s phone and you may not know whose. This is much more of an issue than Apple’s desire to keep its technology secret for its own bottom line.
Apple is doing every person in the country who has a secure iPhone or whose private information may be on someone else’s secure iPhone by keeping their information secure too. Does anyone think through the unintended consequences of forcing Apple to either reveal its code or develop one to get into the phone the FBI thinks MAY contain information? Are you all willing to give up your own private information to anyone, anywhere, who wants to access it–for any reason? How would you feel about having your private information splashed all over social media? ALL of it, especially anything salacious. What fun that would be! Money, banking information, credit card information, sex, the identities of your kids and other loved ones? Their photographs? Their likely wherabouts? Where they go to school? Your employer? Your spouse’s employer? Information about your cars? The possibilities are endless.
Please! THINK before you join those who would force Apple to break its security code because they’re a big bad corporation, who only wants to make a lot of money and doesn’t care about terrorism. They may be doing more to prevent terrorism by keeping the code locked down. Yet people run around calling Apple traitors and demons because they want to keep their technology secret. THINK!
Wow. Lois. For someone who is rabidly anti-gun you sure dipped to new lows to make an argument.
Plus how did we get from your thread Title and post… to this?
And finally…I’m betting 10 to 1 that that isn’t your writing anyways. You copied and pasted that from somewhere.
That’s not your voice. Unless…you have different voices?
Wow. Lois. For someone who is rabidly anti-gun you sure dipped to new lows to make an argument. Plus how did we get from your thread Title and post.... to this? And finally....I'm betting 10 to 1 that that isn't your writing anyways. You copied and pasted that from somewhere. That's not your voice. Unless....you have different voices?I would take that 10 to 1 bet. It is certainly more wordy than usual for Lois, and she may have paraphrased from different sources, but I am betting it is her paraphrasing.
Wow. Lois. For someone who is rabidly anti-gun you sure dipped to new lows to make an argument. Plus how did we get from your thread Title and post.... to this? And finally....I'm betting 10 to 1 that that isn't your writing anyways. You copied and pasted that from somewhere. That's not your voice. Unless....you have different voices?I would take that 10 to 1 bet. It is certainly more wordy than usual for Lois, and she may have paraphrased from different sources, but I am betting it is her paraphrasing. It's far more wordy, and she doesn't usually emotionally plead so passionately like the writing in that big block.
Wow. Lois. For someone who is rabidly anti-gun you sure dipped to new lows to make an argument. Plus how did we get from your thread Title and post.... to this? And finally....I'm betting 10 to 1 that that isn't your writing anyways. You copied and pasted that from somewhere. That's not your voice. Unless....you have different voices?I would take that 10 to 1 bet. It is certainly more wordy than usual for Lois, and she may have paraphrased from different sources, but I am betting it is her paraphrasing. It's far more wordy, and she doesn't usually emotionally plead so passionately like the writing in that big block. I suspect that she will let us know. Remember that you gave 10 to 1 odds. So if I win, that's 10 points for me.