Good resources for understanding atheism

Religion and Secularism
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You're right. You are you and I am me. I personally can't envision any transitional issues. I can't conceptualize it literally. But that's me. If you are becoming an atheist than you are freeing yourself from unnecessary myths and rituals. You're freeing yourself from mental slavery. What's the downside? Having to explain it to your loved ones or something? Ok, I guess that could be tricky.
I've lived through it, and from my perspective it is a profound change, and as you say a very liberating one. I think people do get a lot of comfort and sense of place from religion, but ultimately the price is too high to pay if it does in fact enslave our minds.
I'll take your word for it. I'm a hard determinist, but I do recognize the human conceptualization of choosing and consequences. Basically I'm saying that I don't think you made any choices that led you to atheism. Not the choice part, the atheism part. You must have somewhere along the way realized religion/god was just ridiculous. What choices could have possibly led to that realization? None that I can think of.
At it's most basic level the universe is built on chance, our choices don't just define us, they help define the universe around us. I haven't really gotten to the point of seeing religion as ridiculous, just tragic in far to many cases. In my cases it was choices about facing my personal reality that didn't always come easily...vast understatement.
So you are becoming an atheist and are dealing with the transition. I see now. I became an atheist between the age of 12 and 14. I don't remeber any transitional issues. But then an adolescent has no responsibilities. I became into atheism. You are having to switch to atheism. I can't relate to that. But I see your issues now. I wouldn't worry. Just live your life well. And quit trying to find the connections between atheism and global warming. There's nothing there. You aren't going to find any answers in books either.
I see it more as awakening into a much fully understanding of reality, I'm not really switching anything, just reinterpreting many incomplete lessons. The connections that concern me about religion and things like global warming is the lack of critical thinking skills that are far too often a part of religion, especially fundamentalism. If people just have to learn certain dogma to function successfully in a short term limited scene while entering serious progress traps then that's an issue that effects us all. I don't live in isolation, and for example if I was in a lifeboat and some of my less rational crew mates were cutting the boat to pieces to build a fire then I think it's only rational to point out the flaws in that activity. I see a lot of what's going on in the world around me in that light and not a lot of rational thought going into why and how to change direction. But if you're a determinist then that's a moot point anyway.
I shouldn't have used the word "angle". I just meant in what direction are you looking to seek information about atheism. What direction do you see yourself going in? Once your atheism has completely solidified you will begin to realize that life is in fact a game.
I'm not sure. From my perspective the future is largely open, and every choice I make and action I take creates many new and unanticipated possibilities. And while I see life as being full of randomness, I don't really experience it as a game, although I understand many people do.
I don't know if you're cut out for atheism. I'm half joking here. What's with all this "profound changes" and "implications". There's no implications. There is no profundity. Everything is BS. Just be well and treat others the way jesus would have treated people the best way you can. Obviously we can't be as selfless as jesus was. But we can try. More jokes. But seriously, if everyone tried to live up to the "teachings" of jesus the World would be a better place. Much better probably.
I think we covered that in the beginning of this exchange, living within a religious context is analogous to slavery to some, there's a profound difference in my mind between being free or being a slave. I also think there's some very positive messages from the Christ story that I have consciously tried to include in my life. One of the things that started the process of questioning for me was the dichotomy of what was being preached and what was actually being done within my and other religions. As far as I can tell most religion is about the earthly exercise of power often to the detriment of the spiritual well being of members. Christianity may have started out as a spiritual expression of certain truths, but it soon became corrupted into something much different, something the religion is struggling with today. So in a sense, I don't see myself as leaving the church, it largely abandoned much of what has value to me long ago.
Are you saying that being an atheist is accepting comfort over responsibility? I don't think you are, but I just want to be sure. Also atheism can easily be understanding the fundamentals with perfect clarity. That includes factoring in "uncertainty". The true nature of humans will always be seeking out the answers to uncertainty. That's where the clarity comes in. On a fundamental level. The clarity is knowing we will never be satisfied. So what does "uncertainty" mean in that context? Not much.
No I'm saying that religion provides comfort to many people at the price of turning responsibility for actions over to an agency that there's no evidence even exists. And the consequences can be terrible. Perfect clarity seems to me an ideal that can be sought but never reached, I don't expect to ever reach a place of not asking who I am and what place I have in the universe. The perfection I think is in the process of always asking why, it's a never ending journey which if you're not prepared can seem very risky. I get why many people choose the comfort of religion over the rational approach of saying "I really don't know, let's find out," they just don't see far enough ahead to see the likely results of saying, "I prefer to live by a user manual that was written in the Bronze Age", "and Oh, by the way I may kill you if you ask to many questions".
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I've lived through it, and from my perspective it is a profound change, and as you say a very liberating one. I think people do get a lot of comfort and sense of place from religion, but ultimately the price is too high to pay if it does in fact enslave our minds.
Well for those who truly believe and are mentally enslaved so to speak maybe the price isn't that high. Maybe they're lucky? Kind of the ultimate drugged state for their existence. Oblivious to the contradiction and suffering... But ultimately no. They suffer more. They doubt their fate and their religions's truth all the time. I always say, the vast majority of people are agnostic. Even the ones who profess to be strongly religious and associated with a specific religion. How could doubt not fill anyone's mind when considering a god?
At it's most basic level the universe is built on chance, our choices don't just define us, they help define the universe around us. I haven't really gotten to the point of seeing religion as ridiculous, just tragic in far to many cases. In my cases it was choices about facing my personal reality that didn't always come easily...vast understatement.
Well if there was light trauma or stress, or emotional issues behind those choices or personal realities then you just need to let everything settle. Slow down on your search for "answers" or understandings(because there are none.) I'm assuming this transition happened over a period of time, and has just recently began it's conclusion? If so..slow down. Let things settle in. Settle in easy. Adjust to your new way of thinking and don't be so eager to find meaning in it. I can't stress this enough. I want you to stay an atheist. So take it easy and don't expect much from atheism. Expect much from life like you said. Find answers in science, politics, the environment or your hobbies or work etc. Don't look to atheism to start providing you answers. You might not like the answers it has to give....either none, or depending on your mindset and expectations-harsh answers.
I see it more as awakening into a much fully understanding of reality, I'm not really switching anything, just reinterpreting many incomplete lessons. The connections that concern me about religion and things like global warming is the lack of critical thinking skills that are far too often a part of religion, especially fundamentalism. If people just have to learn certain dogma to function successfully in a short term limited scene while entering serious progress traps then that's an issue that effects us all. I don't live in isolation, and for example if I was in a lifeboat and some of my less rational crew mates were cutting the boat to pieces to build a fire then I think it's only rational to point out the flaws in that activity. I see a lot of what's going on in the world around me in that light and not a lot of rational thought going into why and how to change direction. But if you're a determinist then that's a moot point anyway.
Yes it is a moot point for the most part. I see the same things. So do the other determinists around here. I think it depends on how much nihilism you throw in with your determinism. I tend to throw in a good dash.
I think we covered that in the beginning of this exchange, living within a religious context is analogous to slavery to some, there's a profound difference in my mind between being free or being a slave. I also think there's some very positive messages from the Christ story that I have consciously tried to include in my life. One of the things that started the process of questioning for me was the dichotomy of what was being preached and what was actually being done within my and other religions. As far as I can tell most religion is about the earthly exercise of power often to the detriment of the spiritual well being of members. Christianity may have started out as a spiritual expression of certain truths, but it soon became corrupted into something much different, something the religion is struggling with today. So in a sense, I don't see myself as leaving the church, it largely abandoned much of what has value to me long ago.
Yeah. I think there's some church left in you somewhere. That's why I said you might not be cut out for atheism. There's more revealing items in this paragraph of your's. I'm not being judgmental. But with other things you said, plus your original post in which you stated you searched around for a fitting religion... That's why my continuing theme has been for you to take it easy. Settle down into it slowly. Adjust.
No I'm saying that religion provides comfort to many people at the price of turning responsibility for actions over to an agency that there's no evidence even exists. And the consequences can be terrible.
Yes, but it obviously has/had purpose on a social evolutionary scale. It's largely crap and awful..but don't forget "religion" has guided humans for millennium. Especially prior to say 150-200 years ago. Will it continue to do so? I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I think humans have an innate "need"(?) to look to the "heavens" so to speak. They have to think there is something beyond Earth. Will this slowly evolve away into universal atheism? I don't know. I know it ain't happening anytime soon. But also...the capacity in which religion is guiding humans has greatly diminished.
Perfect clarity seems to me an ideal that can be sought but never reached, I don't expect to ever reach a place of not asking who I am and what place I have in the universe.
Yes, I didn't mean to sound like a guru or something with the whole perfect clarity thing... Again your statement here is revealing. You can ask who you are. But I find it very difficult to understand an atheist asking what place they have in the universe. At least in the context in which I am reading your words. Those are the words of someone still seeking metaphysical "answers". Looking for "higher" meanings. Your place is in your neighborhood. With your friends and family and your vocation etc...Or whatever you do. That's our place. Of course if you travel alot your "place" becomes bigger, but you get the idea. The only other thing is that the particles you are made of will eventually go back to the "universe". But that is fairly mundane. It's not magic or surprising. Basically on a particle sense we are part the universe. But that's strictly science. Not metaphysics or anything. Once we check out...die, those particles are none the wiser. In fact as you probably know, you are not even made up of the same particles you were a few years ago, for the most part. Particles radically arranged to form us at conception, and they will radically rearrange when we die.
The perfection I think is in the process of always asking why, it's a never ending journey which if you're not prepared can seem very risky. I get why many people choose the comfort of religion over the rational approach of saying "I really don't know, let's find out," they just don't see far enough ahead to see the likely results of saying, "I prefer to live by a user manual that was written in the Bronze Age", "and Oh, by the way I may kill you if you ask to many questions".
Like I said that perfection of the never ending journey and always asking why is what gave us religion/gods when we were not even Homo Sapiens yet. That's what got us to this point so far. I'd like to say-"For better or worse", but I don't see things that way. It just "is". One doesn't have to, but you can easily say life is all bullshit without cheating yourself out of anything.
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I did a long reply to your above post VYAZMA, then lost it somehow.
I agree with a lot of what you say, and I think taking the time and going slow is good advice.
I’m learning to take things in stride, and with people like Bill Maher, Jon Stewart and Lewis Black around there’s always something to laugh along with. It’s too bad George Carlin is gone now.

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I did a long reply to your above post VYAZMA, then lost it somehow. I agree with a lot of what you say, and I think taking the time and going slow is good advice. I'm learning to take things in stride, and with people like Bill Maher, Jon Stewart and Lewis Black around there's always something to laugh along with. It's too bad George Carlin is gone now.
George Carlin! Nice! I hate it when that deletion thing happens. It seems to only happen after you type 10.000 words. Peace out!
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Thanks for the responses here, it finally dawned on me that I’m not trying to define atheism, I’m trying to define myself.
This is the first time I’ve every really discussed the issue and I still do have some holdover ideas from my church days.

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Atheism is not simply a lack of belief as some here suggest. It is the belief that there is no such thing as God. The belief that there is no such thing as God is as much a truth claim as the belief that there is a God and, therefore, requires evidence to back it up just as the theist claim does.
Being an atheist is not a default position, but a choice. Look at it this way: A baby doesn’t believe in God, but we can’t call that baby an atheist because that baby doesn’t have the intellect or the information to make that decision.
And given that Dr Justin Barrett of the University of Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind says that children have “a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," it seems that a person must choose atheism at some point in life. See here:

The very fact that you are looking for books on atheism and what it is to be an atheist shows that it is not merely a lack of belief. Whether you call it a philosophy or a worldview or a metaphysical stance, it involves a set of beliefs which influences how one thinks and how one lives.
Given that the atheist would have to know everything that there is to know about the world in order to state with certainty that God does not exist, the atheist would be better off calling himself an agnostic, saying that he doesn’t think God exists, but he can’t be sure.
As for books on atheism, I recommend Ravi Zacharias’ The Face of Atheism

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The belief that there is no such thing as God is as much a truth claim as the belief that there is a God and, therefore, requires evidence to back it up just as the theist claim does.
8th grade logic: Positive statements require proof. Negative statements require no proof. Where is your proof of god? Don't use (insult) the Bible as proof of God's existence, as research has shown this extremely valuable library of ancient writings by many authors is one of best resources for knowledge of the politics in those societies that contributed to it, and at the time. The people who originated these stories and those recorded who the various versions them were using the convenient fiction of gods prevalent in their age to organize their societies and compete with others who were doing much the same.
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Personally, I prefer going about the bible over here at
http://www.bartdehrman.com/multimedia.htm

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Re: Losing posts after you write them and while you are trying to put them up. This seems to be a glitch in the program. You have to get in the habit of blocking off your entire post, hitting control-c to copy it into your computer, then hitting submit. If it works, fine. If it doesn’t, the program shows you a blank box to enter a post in. Go to the upper left corner then type control-v. Your computer will pull your writing out of its memory and put it up. Then you hit submit again. That almost always works, although one time I had to do it three times before the program got it right.
:lol:
Occam

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I was wondering if there are any good resources out there for getting a better understanding of atheism? I used to be a practicing Christian, but I find I don't really believe the story anymore and don't find any other religion appealing. I got about halfway through Richard Dawkins The God Delusion a few years ago but found it a little overwhelming at that point. I also enjoy some of the books of Tom Harpur, who while he approaches the subject from a religious background, has done a lot to demystify Christianity I think, The Pagan Christ being a good example.
Elaine Pagels has written a lot of books that help with the understanding of religion. But first you have to figure out what were/are your thoughts on religion. Most Americans are Faith Based, or put another way, it’s all in your mind and the bible and god really have little to do with your belief. The best advice I can give you is to ask a question. Then using the internet, answer that question. In answering that question you will come up with five more questions. Pick one and search for the answer on the internet. Answer a lot of questions and you will find understanding. To me the best resource is the internet.
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Atheism is not simply a lack of belief as some here suggest. It is the belief that there is no such thing as God. The belief that there is no such thing as God is as much a truth claim as the belief that there is a God and, therefore, requires evidence to back it up just as the theist claim does. Being an atheist is not a default position, but a choice. Look at it this way: A baby doesn't believe in God, but we can't call that baby an atheist because that baby doesn't have the intellect or the information to make that decision. And given that Dr Justin Barrett of the University of Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind says that children have “a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," it seems that a person must choose atheism at some point in life. See here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html The very fact that you are looking for books on atheism and what it is to be an atheist shows that it is not merely a lack of belief. Whether you call it a philosophy or a worldview or a metaphysical stance, it involves a set of beliefs which influences how one thinks and how one lives. Given that the atheist would have to know everything that there is to know about the world in order to state with certainty that God does not exist, the atheist would be better off calling himself an agnostic, saying that he doesn't think God exists, but he can't be sure. As for books on atheism, I recommend Ravi Zacharias' The Face of Atheism
Atheism is not simply a lack of belief as some here suggest. It is the belief that there is no such thing as God. The belief that there is no such thing as God is as much a truth claim as the belief that there is a God and, therefore, requires evidence to back it up just as the theist claim does. Not true. That's not what atheism is. Atheism is a rejection of a claim. It is not a claim itself. If a doctor tells you he sees nothing that would lead him to believe you have cancer he is not claiming you can't possibly have it. He is going on the evidence or lack of evidence he has at hand. That is what atheism is like. A lack of evidence that a god exists, i don't know of many atheists who would claim to know or believe that a god does not exist. It simply doesn't work that way. Atheism is not a belief. It is a position on evidence. Lois
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Elaine Pagels has written a lot of books that help with the understanding of religion. But first you have to figure out what were/are your thoughts on religion. Most Americans are Faith Based, or put another way, it’s all in your mind and the bible and god really have little to do with your belief. The best advice I can give you is to ask a question. Then using the internet, answer that question. In answering that question you will come up with five more questions. Pick one and search for the answer on the internet. Answer a lot of questions and you will find understanding. To me the best resource is the internet.
That seems to be true for me. One of most influential factors in my beliefs over the last few years has been participating on an Astronomy and Science forum that doesn't allow the discussion of religion and politics due to their contentious nature. I find the more I participate there and develop critical thinking skills the less important religion becomes. The main reason I even think about religion now is I live in a world where most people believe in sky bullies or other supernatural entities and I'm working on developing effective ways to live among people who in my opinion are fundamentally delusional. And quite possibly dangerously so.
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Elaine Pagels has written a lot of books that help with the understanding of religion. But first you have to figure out what were/are your thoughts on religion. Most Americans are Faith Based, or put another way, it’s all in your mind and the bible and god really have little to do with your belief. The best advice I can give you is to ask a question. Then using the internet, answer that question. In answering that question you will come up with five more questions. Pick one and search for the answer on the internet. Answer a lot of questions and you will find understanding. To me the best resource is the internet.
That seems to be true for me. One of most influential factors in my beliefs over the last few years has been participating on an Astronomy and Science forum that doesn't allow the discussion of religion and politics due to their contentious nature. I find the more I participate there and develop critical thinking skills the less important religion becomes. The main reason I even think about religion now is I live in a world where most people believe in sky bullies or other supernatural entities and I'm working on developing effective ways to live among people who in my opinion are fundamentally delusional. And quite possibly dangerously so.You nailed it: Greater Education equals Less Religion. That's one reason Righties are so anti-intellectual.
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Fuzzy,
A couple of internet pointers in searching for answers. Ask a question, get 2-5 M hits. That’s too many. Redefine you question for less hits. If you still get too many then I use “site:edu" which will put me in the colleges and universities sites only. If still too many hits, then I figure it is a popular subject and there is a lot of information and many different view point. So next I change the time to the last year or last month.
There is so much more data on the internet today, but that has not always been the case. About nine years ago I thought I would read the bible. I started out with Genesis, I research back to the oldest translations so that I would have an understanding of the level and skill used in the translating of the bible. I did not get very far in the bible until I was working with about 5 or 6 different gods. Not finding the answer on the internet that was logical and fit in with my research, I ended up calling different professors and talking to them about the data. The best help I got was from rabbis in Israel.
Another time I was trying to understand the central banking system that was used back in the B.C. time period. I could not find answers on the internet, so I contacted professors of the subject, and they agreed that there had to be a form of central banking but as banking is secret today, it was just as secret back then and no data is available. Point being not all answers can be found.
Another point is to sit back and look at the overall picture and you will see everything evolves and some items have cycles.
Next work from a timeline. The time line is the datum point that tells you where to start to look for answers for your questions.
As example, in America the Christians believe that their religion started with the creation of earth 6 to 7 thousand years ago. In reality America’s religions really got going into a force and formed into the religions and thought processes as we know them today in the mid 1800’s.
The timeline I use is that religion is as old as mankind. All religions around the world started with the Red Ochre based religions, then we have mankind on the endanger extinction list from 74,000 to 71,000 years ago. This created small pockets of mankind. One of the pockets in the area of India created the Vega based religions, of which is the base of all the religions except those in the Americas and parts of Africa. But today you will find several professors that are matching up items of the religions in the Americas with the Vega based religion.
This brings us to the religions that are around at that beginning of history (writing). Another point in the timeline. Pre-history religions to history religions.
The next task is to have several timelines. One for spoken languages. Several for the DNA timelines of man, animals, and plants. One for money and trade. One for weather, floods and natural disasters. One for plagues and starvation. One for Leprosy. One for technical advances of man. One for Egypt. One for clothing. One for food and diet of man. One for the evolution of the types of gods, (heaven, animal, animal/man, man, spirit). One for wars. One for the use of metals and building materials. One for math, measurement, weight, music and education in general. And one for Laws and contracts.
All these timelines need to match each other and then we will have some idea of our past history. The one I like the best and find the most helpful is the domestication timeline of plants and animals done by DNA.
One of the upcoming timelines is the Leprosy timeline. The Asians had several expansions and ended up in the Americas. So why were they not in Europe and the Middle East? We are just now finding out they were. At one time about 40 percent of Europe was lost to Leprosy. The Asians have no defense from Leprosy. This alone requires the rewriting of history.
Once you feel that you have a little understanding of your forefathers, then and only then should you try and understand the bible. It is this understanding that will make the bible and religion understandable as what it really is.
Hope this helps, Mike

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The Newer More English Version will give you an insight into the mind of an atheist… Find it on amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Newer-More-English-Version-ebook/dp/B00CPL2P0K/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=8-1&qid=1375261491

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Very interesting Mike, thanks.

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Atheism is not simply a lack of belief as some here suggest. It is the belief that there is no such thing as God. The belief that there is no such thing as God is as much a truth claim as the belief that there is a God and, therefore, requires evidence to back it up just as the theist claim does. Being an atheist is not a default position, but a choice. Look at it this way: A baby doesn't believe in God, but we can't call that baby an atheist because that baby doesn't have the intellect or the information to make that decision.
In a way, you're right. There are many emotional reasons to believe in God. Our brains naturally look for intelligent agents in everything, whether they exist or not. It's emotionally comforting to think that some great Father figure rules the universe mitigating bad things that might happen to us. It's comforting to believe that we never really die, but move into some other plane of existence. Left to itself, a baby will probably grow up to believe in God for those reasons. What we atheists tend to do is realize that just being emotionally comforting does not necessarily mean that it's true. We've made the decision to let reason be our guide because in our experience it's more likely to lead to objective truth. In a way, that would qualify as a worldview statement. But it's still not as simple as believing, "There is no such thing as God." It's more like, "Show me some good solid evidence and I might believe it. Otherwise..."
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Dogmatic statements that “atheism IS” this or that have no place among rationalists. There are many forms of atheism. “Atheism is the belief that there is no such thing as God” is called positive atheism. More valid and better reasoned, in my opinion, is negative atheism, which says there is no evidence of a god. I have several reasons for preferring negative atheism.
(1) It’s logically defensible. If we value science and want to have any credibility reminding people that non-falsifiable claims cannot be tested, and therefore are not reliable, then we should not run around saying there is no god. If you can’t prove it, then don’t say it.
(2) Along the same lines, by making a positive claim, which we admit we cannot support, we end up doing exactly what the theists do, on the very subject on which we disagree with them. So we end up looking like hypocrites, because we are being hypocrites.
(3) Positive atheism takes the focus away from the method of inquiry and puts it on the answer to the question. But no one has a verifiable answer to that question. All we have are methods of inquiry, some of which are useful and some of which are not.
In no way does negative atheism make us weaker. Theists don’t like it at all when I point out that there isn’t a shred of evidence for their or any other god, as in supreme being. I’m in a much stronger position because I have a position I can defend at every turn.
Of course, anyone is free to disagree. But for Chris’sake, stop with the dogmatic assertions that atheism is only what you would like it to be. It’s demonstrably not true, and makes atheists as a group look ridiculous, thereby weakening our position immeasurably.

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Dogmatic statements that "atheism IS" this or that have no place among rationalists. There are many forms of atheism. "Atheism is the belief that there is no such thing as God" is called positive atheism. More valid and better reasoned, in my opinion, is negative atheism, which says there is no evidence of a god. I have several reasons for preferring negative atheism.
Just a thought. Would this be “negative atheism"? It would be easier if we defined what “God" is first. I find that today’s meaning may not have been the thinking of all the ancestors in all the religions. For example, I think Jesus’s outlook on religion would require us today to label him an “Atheist". As the modern thinking of the beginning of Christianity was not by Jesus’s Gnostic thinking but by parts of his message used with the older religion that Jesus was trying to replace with the Gnostic movement out of Alexander Egypt. Now, would you call “Gnostic" an “Atheist" movement? After all, in Gnostic, god is nothing more than “Knowledge" and this knowledge is in us all. And it is this combination of all our knowledge that makes “God". This same line of Gnostic thinking use in old Genesis stories starts to make a lot more sense with the stories of the garden and god created earth for man.