"Go read it again", that's all you got my friend.Give a reply to the other O P so as not to derail here and we will see what else I can give you. If you seek a proof though, I cannot help you. If you think I live in woo then I would not bother as we will not chat long. I do not expect belief but I am impatient with those who think me in woo land. I have no beliefs that require miracles or magic. Regards DL You can see that we already had that conversation can't you? I didn't read the whole thing and I don't remember where we left it, but I did respond back then. You think YOUR apeothesis should mean something to me. It only means that people have those types of experiences and attach meaning to them. When you start saying that your interpretation is correct and I should get something from that, that's when it becomes woo. How would you define that? My interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Whether you get anything from it is not in my hands. I am not sure just what you want defined. If you mean that situation then I would just define it as one person giving an anecdotal account and another taking it as something the other believe or a lie. I have no profit in lying so take it was you will. Regards DL
My interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Whether you get anything from it is not in my hands. I am not sure just what you want defined. If you mean that situation then I would just define it as one person giving an anecdotal account and another taking it as something the other believe or a lie. I have no profit in lying so take it was you will. Regards DLYou say that, but you also say
you too might suffer an apotheosis and go from your mindset now to one of a fool because you will have to change your mind and tell all of us that you have had an apotheosis and must now eat of what you gave to me and others. Go read my O P again and try to understand it this time.Indicating there is something I don’t understand and an experience that I have not had that would enlighten me and raise my awareness to some point that you are at. Obviously you think this point is better than the place I’m in now. Make up your mind. Further evidence, from the other thread;
But if you do not recognize that you have a spiritual side and seek a higher ideal, you will not understand the ideas esoteric thinking give.So, if I understand you, I must first accept (“recognize") something with no evidence (“spiritual side") then I can understand. I already discussed these false choices you setup in the other thread. In that thread, you were evasive and referred back to ANOTHER thread about free will. I suspect this is your modus operandi, keep referring to things with less and less and data until we are speaking in pure hypotheticals. Here’s where I left it:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189092
You are still seeing God as a supernatural entity somewhere out there. Not surprising as that is what most churches teach and an idea that does not sit well with you. Me neither. The Godhead I speak of is inside of you. And if you cannot drop that external God just think of that word as representing an ideal that your higher mind recognizes, then we are never going to be on the same page. It is all imagination and internalizing the myth of Jesus that helps you find your Jesus or higher mind within yourself. There is no Jesus. There is only your higher mind. To esoteric thinking in any case and you do not have that as you do not seek a higher ideal.
I did not re-read the O P but you must have brought up free will or evil as I would not have answered as I did.
Trying to convert me is impossible as I am going by my true experience and have the evidence I need to believe as I do.
If you do not recognize that you have two natures, a political one and a spiritual one, then I cannot convert you.
Seems we are at a dead end but since we both give man supreme power with no deity above us our morals likely match as we do not have to corrupt them the way idol worshipers have to to justify their God’s atrocities. The Christians that is.
Regards
DL
The traditional God and church does not really enter into this anymore, so mentioning it just indicates your own confusion, not mine. I know you are talking about something inside of me, it would be pretty hard to miss that.
I know about the power of myth. I wouldn’t use the word “internalize" when talking about it. I often say, “find yourself in the story". That is, the myth is what it is, and I can relate to it, map myself onto it, experience it as deeply as I can, but it’s always a myth. There is no Jesus in me to find. Also, I would never tell someone they “do not seek a higher ideal", that’s just rude.
What’s bringing this to a dead end is your lack of effort. Find where I mentioned free will before you did for example.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189089
And I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’m just fascinated by these home grown versions of spirituality. I don’t understand why you think it is any better than any other. Fine, you don’t have a supreme being threatening hell, you don’t tell people to make sacrifices at alters. But those morals have only changed because most people can’t be frightened or tricked into doing those things anymore.
You’re still telling people that you recognize something they don’t, even though you can’t explain what it is. That’s the beginning of the road for any religion and it leads to the same mess every time.
The traditional God and church does not really enter into this anymore, so mentioning it just indicates your own confusion, not mine. I know you are talking about something inside of me, it would be pretty hard to miss that. I know about the power of myth. I wouldn’t use the word “internalize" when talking about it. I often say, “find yourself in the story". That is, the myth is what it is, and I can relate to it, map myself onto it, experience it as deeply as I can, but it’s always a myth. There is no Jesus in me to find. Also, I would never tell someone they “do not seek a higher ideal", that’s just rude. What’s bringing this to a dead end is your lack of effort. Find where I mentioned free will before you did for example.I show a way to reach the higher mind. I do not think it better than any other way. No one has a monopoly on a way or a truth. I do try explain what I think it is. That is why we are here discussing just that. That is why I provided this clip in that other O P. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y This method is a way, as Bishop Spong says, to get rid of religiosity and think spiritually and became as ideal of a human as possible. It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don't really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation. Regards DLhttp://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189089And I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’m just fascinated by these home grown versions of spirituality. I don’t understand why you think it is any better than any other. Fine, you don’t have a supreme being threatening hell, you don’t tell people to make sacrifices at alters. But those morals have only changed because most people can’t be frightened or tricked into doing those things anymore. You’re still telling people that you recognize something they don’t, even though you can’t explain what it is. That’s the beginning of the road for any religion and it leads to the same mess every time.
It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don't really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation. Regards DLI cast that off a long time ago. I'm saying what you're doing is just a different yoke. Your YouTube does not explain why what you're doing is any different than any other form of spirituality/religion. I read Spong. If there was a book that when I started I was a believer and when I ended I was not, Jesus for the Non-Religious would be it. But when I got to the end of that, and he tacked on the bit about how he still loved Jesus in a very special way, it made no sense. Maybe you can explain that.
Adam and Eve only exist in folklore that some priest/phophet wrote to try to keep his people from attempting to gain “knowledge” of good and evil, so his class could define it to their own benefit.
It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don't really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation. Regards DLI cast that off a long time ago. I'm saying what you're doing is just a different yoke. Your YouTube does not explain why what you're doing is any different than any other form of spirituality/religion. I read Spong. If there was a book that when I started I was a believer and when I ended I was not, Jesus for the Non-Religious would be it. But when I got to the end of that, and he tacked on the bit about how he still loved Jesus in a very special way, it made no sense. Maybe you can explain that. I do not speak for him but Joseph Campbell and I see Jesus as just another face in Heroes of a 1000 Faces. Of course Spong is going to like some of Jesus as Jesus is a composite of all the run of the mill good guys. My view that you are not getting is that one must internalize a myth to allow your higher mind to meld with it. So to speak. If you do not think you have a higher mind, consciousness, sub-conscience, id, super ego, then you will not seek it or find it. Compared to the O T prick, Jesus is fantastic. On his own, he can use our modern morals. But all the Jesus ' are myths. Regards DL
Adam and Eve only exist in folklore that some priest/phophet wrote to try to keep his people from attempting to gain "knowledge" of good and evil, so his class could define it to their own benefit.Perhaps that is why the Jews and Gnostic Christians thought Eden our place of elevation. We did an evil God out of his attempt at keeping us in ignorant bliss and never becoming as God mentally. The Christians put the wrong moral to the story. Regards DL
My view that you are not getting is that one must internalize a myth to allow your higher mind to meld with it. So to speak. If you do not think you have a higher mind, consciousness, sub-conscience, id, super ego, then you will not seek it or find it. DL“mind" is not defined, so “higher mind" is less defined. “consciousness" is equally debatable, it’s one of the most fascinating discussions going on in science today, but you just throw it out there like it’s something we should know with no discussion. “sub-conscious" is defined as the part of our mind that we aren’t aware of, but again, you keep talking like I just need to seek it in whatever way you say, then I’ll find it. And I should note that you haven’t said much about what I should be doing, only that what I have said so far is wrong. You want me to accept it’s there but you don’t tell me how to find it. “id" and “super ego" are complex Freudian terms, an atheist BTW, but you put them in this list that appears to be synonyms for the one thing. So, we’re getting to that point where I have to ask what the heck you are talking about? I responded to your statement about internalizing myth, and you just repeated yourself, so either you didn’t like what I said or you don’t want to expand on what you said.
You ask what to do. Meditation leading to a trance state. Activating the third or inner eye.
You have seen this clip. Right?
Regards
DL
You ask what to do. Meditation leading to a trance state. Activating the third or inner eye. You have seen this clip. Right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y Regards DLYeah I watched it. That's an usual presentation, a middle class guy in his den talking about meditation as way to Jesus. Lots of people meditate. They claim to contact all sorts of deities, or they just say it makes them feel calm. If I did that and got different results from you, you would tell me I did it wrong and we'd right back here talking past each other. That's why I like science, it actually leads to something that others can use.
It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don't really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation. Regards DLI cast that off a long time ago. I'm saying what you're doing is just a different yoke. Your YouTube does not explain why what you're doing is any different than any other form of spirituality/religion. I read Spong. If there was a book that when I started I was a believer and when I ended I was not, Jesus for the Non-Religious would be it. But when I got to the end of that, and he tacked on the bit about how he still loved Jesus in a very special way, it made no sense. Maybe you can explain that. I do not speak for him but Joseph Campbell and I see Jesus as just another face in Heroes of a 1000 Faces. Of course Spong is going to like some of Jesus as Jesus is a composite of all the run of the mill good guys. My view that you are not getting is that one must internalize a myth to allow your higher mind to meld with it. So to speak. If you do not think you have a higher mind, consciousness, sub-conscience, id, super ego, then you will not seek it or find it. Compared to the O T prick, Jesus is fantastic. On his own, he can use our modern morals. But all the Jesus ' are myths. Regards DL Do you mean Spong Bob Square Pants? Lois
You ask what to do. Meditation leading to a trance state. Activating the third or inner eye. You have seen this clip. Right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y Regards DLYeah I watched it. That's an usual presentation, a middle class guy in his den talking about meditation as way to Jesus. Lots of people meditate. They claim to contact all sorts of deities, or they just say it makes them feel calm. If I did that and got different results from you, you would tell me I did it wrong and we'd right back here talking past each other. That's why I like science, it actually leads to something that others can use. Thanks for the prediction of what I would say. Regards DL
I realize we agree on that. I believe we've both already stated it. That's why I asked you for a way to get out of that hole. Here's a generic statement that applies to all religions, spiritual belief systems and methods of reaching your "higher mind". Explain to me how yours different:Lots of people meditate. They claim to contact all sorts of deities, or they just say it makes them feel calm. If I did that and got different results from you, you would tell me I did it wrong and we'd right back here talking past each other. That's why I like science, it actually leads to something that others can use.Thanks for the prediction of what I would say. Regards DL
My conclusions are valid as a result of my method. This method must be followed to reach my conclusion. I don’t have to prove my method or address any side effects of my method. Individual testimony is all that is needed. To prove I am wrong, you must follow my methods and get the same results.
I realize we agree on that. I believe we've both already stated it. That's why I asked you for a way to get out of that hole. Here's a generic statement that applies to all religions, spiritual belief systems and methods of reaching your "higher mind". Explain to me how yours different:Lots of people meditate. They claim to contact all sorts of deities, or they just say it makes them feel calm. If I did that and got different results from you, you would tell me I did it wrong and we'd right back here talking past each other. That's why I like science, it actually leads to something that others can use.Thanks for the prediction of what I would say. Regards DL
My conclusions are valid as a result of my method. This method must be followed to reach my conclusion. I don’t have to prove my method or address any side effects of my method. Individual testimony is all that is needed. To prove I am wrong, you must follow my methods and get the same results.It isn't. All esoteric teachings promote meditation and deep thinking as far as I know. They all promote seeking their ideal from within. You do not believe you have a within to seek. Regards DL
Here's a generic statement that applies to all religions, spiritual belief systems and methods of reaching your "higher mind". Explain to me how yours is different:It isn't. All esoteric teachings promote meditation and deep thinking as far as I know. They all promote seeking their ideal from within. You do not believe you have a within to seek. Regards DL Was not expecting that. Thanks. I guess the only thing I have to add is that I don't appreciate you continually telling me what I believe. If you said something like, "I don't believe in science", then I would respond with questions about what you mean by "believe" and "science". You just added another word, "within", to the list you gave earlier, and I asked you to define, making you less understandable.My conclusions are valid as a result of my method. This method must be followed to reach my conclusion. I don’t have to prove my method or address any side effects of my method. Individual testimony is all that is needed. To prove I am wrong, you must follow my methods and get the same results.
What I would say does not seem to matter at this point. You wish to argue. Not learn.
Regards
DL
Here we are, atheists included, debating whether Eve can be exonerated from her sin when most of us don’t believe in sin in the first place. How can we debate exoneration? Exoneration by whom? In order to believe there can be anything called sin we have to believe in a god thet evaluates human actions as sin or not sin. We might as well be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, even if we don’t believe angels exist. We keep on arguing anyway!
Here we are, atheists included, debating whether Eve can be exonerated from her sin when most of us don't believe in sin in the first place. How can we debate exoneration? Exoneration by whom? In order to believe there can be anything called sin we have to believe in a god thet evaluates human actions as sin or not sin. We might as well be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, even if we don't believe angels exist. We keep on arguing anyway!No argument. But it is said that intelligent people can discuss things they do not believe in and there are good reasons for the intelligent to destroy the so called logic of this myth. Women especially and men of honor will try to kill this myth whenever possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related Any here who do not fight religions are not moral people. Regards DL