I think it's a silly statement, but we can see some correlations. First, atheism requires reasoning to eliminate the concept of a god. Second, reasoning requires intelligence, and I would guess that it could be shown that there's a correlation between superiority of reasoning ability and intelligence. Third, there is a definite, but certainly not complete, correlation between intelligence and financial level. I do not see it as a luxury, but rather, in the long term, a necessity. OccamHi! New person here... I hold a fair amount of confidence in the idea that the drive to connect with some sort of divine presence is a natural inclination, and it's something that's been around in the vast majority of societies, if not all of them. It's kind of stunning how prevalent it is, when you think about it. People who have fallen on hard times are more likely to get into a lot of things which can provide them with some kind of comfort. Relationships--ANY relationships--drugs, alcohol, and the like. And then there's the pursuit of the divine, typically only considered to be a part of religion in places like the US. People might get into it for the promise of heaven, sure, but there's also the palpable aspect of feeling connected to a presence far greater than oneself. Feeling that kind of connection can provide relief, and can give a sense of purpose. And, people want that-- not just people who have fallen on hard times either. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it's an innate trait. It's unfortunate that the major sources of that connection, for most people in the US, happen to be religious institutions which put their perceived monopoly on the divine before the needs of their followers, and before the wellbeing of society at large. But that's the only way people think that they can achieve that connection, because that's what they see all around them, and they get swallowed up. It takes intelligence, and luck, to be able to see beyond that. And if you're predisposed to want the connection, due to hard times or your genetic makeup, it takes a LOT of luck. Because not many people will tell a person that they don't have to subscribe to a religion to find their gods, and even fewer will tell people that they don't have to believe in anyone else's gods-- that they're free to choose their own gods. It takes a lot of intelligence to discover the nature of one's personal divinities, through personal experience and research, in a way which holds fast to science. But that's the real thing: adherence to science is what is more important. People do not have to give up the concept of gods, and for people like me such a choice, to relinquish my divinities, would actually be the opposite of intelligent. In circles where atheism is seen as intellectually superior to theism--any kind of theism, even that which holds fast to science--natural atheists do kind of hold a luxury. Rational circles are by and large this way. Anyway, I'm trying to figure out a way for this to not have to be the case, because I've struggled with this all my life. So I'm working on something to help people like me to be understood: http://polygnostic.info Sorry for not posting in the intro threads first, but when I saw this thread I knew where I wanted to jump in. I can post an intro if that'd be preferable.
Simple questions to Theists…
a) Why MUST there be a God (a supernatural entity)?
b) Why SHOULD life be the creation of such a supernatural entity?
c) Why should man have a SPECIAL STATUS in the eyes of such an entity?
d) Why should such an entity REQUIRE worship?
I have heard all the speculative arguments theists use to “justify” the existence of a MOTIVATED supernatural being. It always comes down to the concept of “irreducible complexity” which would “require” an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER.
Then the argument that the odds are against the precise cnfiguration that would allow for the evolution of the universe as we experience it.
I have heard them all, yet no one has made a persuasive case that a God (as defined in scripture) is a REQUIRED CREATOR, without which the Universe, in all its complexity could not exist.
Using Ockhams razor, of all the possible answers, the argument for a SENTIENT, INTELLIGENT, MOTIVATED, EMOTIONAL CREATOR would be at the very bottom of my list. I guess, I lack the hubris for such self esteem.
But let no theist accuse me of an inability to appreciate the SPLENDOR and MAJESTY of the Universe.
splendor 1.magnificence: the condition of being magnificent, impressive, or brilliant 2.something splendid: something that is magnificent, impressive, or brilliant Synonyms: magnificence · glory · grandeur · brilliance · finery · impressiveness · majestyand
majesty 1.splendor: awesomely large size or great splendor 2.dignity: a deeply impressive dignified quality 3.power: supreme authority and power Synonyms: magnificence · splendor · dignity · grandeur · illustriousness · statelinessThere is nothing special about believing in a God. It's the interpretation of God that I object to, because it takes a lot of hubris to claim special status of knowledge of such a system. In the scheme of thing, man is no more special than an ant, but I object to the comparison that the earth and the life thereon is no more than an ant-farm for the pleasure of a supernatural being. That is pure science fiction, IMO.
There is nothing special about believing in a God. It’s the interpretation of God that I object to, because it takes a lot of hubris to claim special status of knowledge of such a system.There's nothing special about belief in a god or religion for that matter as both are human constructs designed to explain our environment or to create a hierarchical form of governance. It's origins are now traceable from Cro-Magnon (and possibly Neanderthal) down to the Pope. We made the gods in our own image; they look like us, act as we do, e.g. Jealous, spiteful, capricious, and vengeful, also kind and loving to grant an individual a special place in life plus a reward of some kind afterwards. We believe in gods because there's a payoff for our fealty, via protection, intercession in times of need, and love. The gods fill in the blanks in our lives which is why they won't be leaving us anytime soon. It takes study, and a great deal of courage to send them packing from one's life because you have to step out of that comfort zone of belief and comradeship with those who still believe but the real payoff is far more satisfying than self delusion. Cap't Jack
Arda_asura said:
It takes a lot of intelligence to discover the nature of one’s personal divinities, through personal experience and research, in a way which holds fast to science. But that’s the real thing: adherence to science is what is more important. People do not have to give up the concept of gods, and for people like me such a choice, to relinquish my divinities, would actually be the opposite of intelligent.Personal experiences are real, but that’s about the only thing you and I agree on. What else could they be? If you honestly describe an experience, how can I say it’s wrong? It’s the interpretations that don’t align with the rest of reality that are the problem. When I feel connected to the universe, that’s a feeling, when I call it God, that’s an interpretation. When someone else calls it Allah, that’s a problem. It may not be a problem for you, but it’s a problem for a lot of people, and they make it a problem for the rest of us. To put it bluntly, you’re doing science wrong. Susan Blackmore has been through this. You might want to look into her work.
http://winter60.blogspot.com/2010/03/paranormal-normalness.htmlFrom your website
In the context of polygnosticism, "the divine" refers to all that is thought or perceived to be divine, including deities and other divinities, personal or material qualities, and any other physical or nonphysical elements of existence.Basically you’re saying go ahead and makeup whatever definitions you want. The trouble starts when people start thinking that they can skip being vaccinated or not give their children medicine when they are dying or that the end is coming so nothing matters. We’ve isolated most of these people, but they used to be in charge of entire countries. I know you’re reasonable and you think these things don’t need to be addressed, but where do you draw the line? How detached from reality do you allow someone to be before you call them crazy and keep them away from the children? You need to decide where that line is before your polygnostic thing will work.
Simple questions to Theists..Hey! That's me!
a) Why MUST there be a God (a supernatural entity)?There shouldn't be any scientific hypothesis physical supernatural entity, including one who moves the physical world, because we have no reason to test that. Nonetheless, people can experience divinities who move the physical world in mysterious ways, and theists often do experience these kinds of things. That's not supernaturalism, that's just anthropology-- talking about people's experiences. The thing that people have to realize is, such experiences and the recognition that those experiences are objective truth--scientifically valid and universal to everyone--can be two separate things. As to the must-ness of it, that's something only individuals can answer. Any speculation on an objective divinity who needs to exist in order for the physical universe to make sense isn't going to be fruitful, and more than that it'll just be a road to further empty speculation, to an intellectual no-person's-land. But an individual who needs a God, or gods, or some other kind of divinity to make sense of their own experiences, and to find better direction and purpose in their life--and such people do exist--has good reason to say that a god, or other divinity, must exist in their experience.
b) Why SHOULD life be the creation of such a supernatural entity?It shouldn't.
c) Why should man have a SPECIAL STATUS in the eyes of such an entity?Well, a lot of people with divinities have reason to understand that they, themselves, matter to their divinities. Again, that's just going off of people's perceptions.
d) Why should such an entity REQUIRE worship?They shouldn't, not by everyone. If an individual benefits from worship then it's up to them to decide to worship, but it's not something that should be pushed on everyone... Hah, not sure if those questions were actually directed at me, but you did specify "theists"!
So why should someone who understands that their divinities are personal to them send their gods packing if their gods also happen to be very helpful to them? Because, well, that's real payoff, right? just getting extra help from such experiences?There is nothing special about believing in a God. It’s the interpretation of God that I object to, because it takes a lot of hubris to claim special status of knowledge of such a system.There's nothing special about belief in a god or religion for that matter as both are human constructs designed to explain our environment or to create a hierarchical form of governance. It's origins are now traceable from Cro-Magnon (and possibly Neanderthal) down to the Pope. We made the gods in our own image; they look like us, act as we do, e.g. Jealous, spiteful, capricious, and vengeful, also kind and loving to grant an individual a special place in life plus a reward of some kind afterwards. We believe in gods because there's a payoff for our fealty, via protection, intercession in times of need, and love. The gods fill in the blanks in our lives which is why they won't be leaving us anytime soon. It takes study, and a great deal of courage to send them packing from one's life because you have to step out of that comfort zone of belief and comradeship with those who still believe but the real payoff is far more satisfying than self delusion. Cap't Jack
Arda_asura said:Because they postulate divinity to be something far beyond anything it's ever shown itself to be. There's a vast history of experiences with the divine, but whether these are anything apart from experiences--whether there are objective gods--isn't something that can be scientifically proven. The people who cause the problems attach the idea of gods to absolutes, and to empirically measurable forces. Why is an interpretation wrong simply if it uses the word "god"? I get that western monotheism has some really fishy ideas about this whole god thing, so there's a lot of baggage associated with the word "god" now, and just using the word brings up all of that; but divinity has a much larger history than western monotheism.It takes a lot of intelligence to discover the nature of one’s personal divinities, through personal experience and research, in a way which holds fast to science. But that’s the real thing: adherence to science is what is more important. People do not have to give up the concept of gods, and for people like me such a choice, to relinquish my divinities, would actually be the opposite of intelligent.Personal experiences are real, but that’s about the only thing you and I agree on. What else could they be? If you honestly describe an experience, how can I say it’s wrong? It’s the interpretations that don’t align with the rest of reality that are the problem. When I feel connected to the universe, that’s a feeling, when I call it God, that’s an interpretation. When someone else calls it Allah, that’s a problem. It may not be a problem for you, but it’s a problem for a lot of people, and they make it a problem for the rest of us.
To put it bluntly, you’re doing science wrong. Susan Blackmore has been through this. You might want to look into her work.Ouch. I think I'm pretty versed in science, and my angle on this whole divinity thing draws a lot on history and anthropology, and I do point out that there's nothing scientifically testable about a divine experience. It's a personal determination, whether or not to call something divinity.http://winter60.blogspot.com/2010/03/paranormal-normalness.html
From your websiteWell, the website also states, upfront:In the context of polygnosticism, "the divine" refers to all that is thought or perceived to be divine, including deities and other divinities, personal or material qualities, and any other physical or nonphysical elements of existence.Basically you’re saying go ahead and makeup whatever definitions you want. The trouble starts when people start thinking that they can skip being vaccinated or not give their children medicine when they are dying or that the end is coming so nothing matters. We’ve isolated most of these people, but they used to be in charge of entire countries. I know you’re reasonable and you think these things don’t need to be addressed, but where do you draw the line? How detached from reality do you allow someone to be before you call them crazy and keep them away from the children? You need to decide where that line is before your polygnostic thing will work.
Polygnosticism is: Maintaining an agnostic stance regarding the existence and nature of physical divinity, God, or gods — such as the natural sciences may someday be able to discover — while accepting perceptions and personal knowledge of the divine as substantial, and perhaps even possessing such perceptions and knowledge oneself.I guess I also need to state that personal divinity isn't an excuse to not respect the advances of science, or to educate oneself about reason and the scientific method... As for how detached from reality people can get, what I'm trying to do isn't to allow that. I'm trying to allow people to have experiences which are illuminating and fulfilling while remaining thoroughly attached to reality, and that includes healthy skepticism about objective claims. When people start making objective, absolute claims about the divine, we have a problem. When people start making absolute claims about vaccinations without scientific backing, we have a problem. When a person senses a divine presence and the divine presence tells them something helpful, we don't have a problem. The reason I came to this forum was, in part, for feedback like this. I'll try to be more clear on respecting science on the website, because I realize now that simply saying "objective agnosticism", or something like it, isn't enough to make that point...
When a person senses a divine presence and the divine presence tells them something helpful, we don't have a problem.Lots that could be addressed, and I'll respond if you think something else is more important, but this one is key. There's a name for this phenomenon in philosophy of accidentally being right. The name doesn't matter, just that it has been discussed. It is sort of a philosophical problem because it leads to the thinking you are presenting. If we are talking about a serial killer who found God and quit killing people, I'd back off, what would be the point in pushing the guy? But we're talking about average people. Individually, someone is led to something good by their "divine" experience. Great. But now they have been rewarded, so they seek the divine again. This time it gives them bad advice, but they have suspended their critical faculties, so they take it. In a group, leaders take advantage of this, consciously or not. They have outreach programs that clean up parks and feed starving children. Great. People join thinking this is an awesome service organization. They drop money in the basket and don't look at the books. They send their kids to Sunday School and don't check the curriculum. Before you know it their bank accounts are empty and their children are turning them in as sinners. If you think I'm exaggerating then you don't know history. I know you're thinking that this is all easily handled by a little oversight, some checks and balances, but you are proposing a system that is based on not doing that very checking in the first place. You're proposing that if someone says they touched the divine, we don't question them. Once you say that is possible, you set up a situation where some can claim it and others are left wondering if it is true. On the chance it might be true, they follow those who claim it is. I'm sure you would be smart enough to figure out who the hucksters are, but there are too many people out there who are easily taken advantage of. Teaching people how to live in the real world is much better.
So why should someone who understands that their divinities are personal to them send their gods packing if their gods also happen to be very helpful to them? Because, well, that’s real payoff, right? just getting extra help from such experiences?Hey, I enjoy an inspirational fairytale as much as the next guy and that's ok as long as you are fully aware of the fact that it's fiction and not fact. I think that the fox and the grapes was a terrific morality tale, but I know that there aren't any talking foxes or rabbits who race tortoises. I also know that my favorite goddess Athena didn't actually exist either so I don't head to Nashville to throw drahmas at the feet of her immense statue or slaughter a bull in her honor. Albeit she makes one hellova gigantic goddess, very impressive. Cap't Jack
Teaching people how to live in the real world is much better.I'm going to respond to everything you wrote, but I'm going to start with this. Let's talk about the real world. The real world, for beings who deal with a combination of purely subjective and sensory--more objective--experiences, is complicated. People can talk about their personal worlds with credence, because we all have a personal world of sorts. That's pretty widely acceptable. Within our personal world are the networks of thoughts, emotions, and other nonsensory percepotions, rife with meaning, explored and expressed since the beginning of artistic expression and creation. There are signals in the noise in expressions of people's personal worlds, things which tell us common threads in people's experiences. These are things like people's perceived self-images, people's great loves, people's passions, and so on. I mean, there are a lot of these common threads. Some of the oldest surviving works of art, and some of the most widely produced works of art, are of divinities. Gods, typically, but other forces too with perceived wills-- aspects of life which, early on, played upon our capacity to construct theories of mind. That's interesting. There are a lot of works of art surrounding the subjective experience of love as well, so we could say that's also very interesting, and it is. It definitely tells us something about people, and about what is important to them. And, there's no objective love--no physical love outside of chemicals and neurons--yet people say that love is real. That's something that people just don't question. Would you assert that someone who is in love should just drop that experience and live in the "real world"? even if that's what gives their personal world meaning? Assuming you wouldn't, why would you do the same with people who experience divinities? I mean, really, don't seek to understand the nature of your experiences? don't look to history or other cultures to correlate them? nevermind the fact that people all over the world and throughout history have had similar experiences? Just drop them because they're not in the "real world"? Well that's kind of willfully ignorant, isn't it? Harsh I know, but I do mean it. It's willfully ignorant of the vast history and importance of divine communion to people, and of the possibility that such practices, as probable aspects of our biological natures, could lead to unique opportunities for fulfillment. It's ignorant of the fact that perhaps some people *need* such experiences to function properly, or to get through a rough patch. I know there are concerns, so let's address them:
There's a name for this phenomenon in philosophy of accidentally being right. The name doesn't matter, just that it has been discussed. It is sort of a philosophical problem because it leads to the thinking you are presenting. If we are talking about a serial killer who found God and quit killing people, I'd back off, what would be the point in pushing the guy? But we're talking about average people.http://www.npr.org/2012/03/26/149394987/when-god-talks-back-to-the-evangelical-community When average people actually commune with the divine, the results typically aren't anything to write home about. There are bad experiences, yes, brought on by absolute assertions about the divine being universal or objective, rather than something everyone should seek to figure out for themselves, and maybe with the help of agnostic or anthorpologically oriented theists.
Individually, someone is led to something good by their "divine" experience. Great. But now they have been rewarded, so they seek the divine again. This time it gives them bad advice, but they have suspended their critical faculties, so they take it.What you're doing here is conflating seeking the divine with suspension of critical faculties. You're implying that one has to imply the other, again kind of willfully ignorantly-- if not willfully than perhaps lividly. And not without reason, as seen below:
In a group, leaders take advantage of this, consciously or not. They have outreach programs that clean up parks and feed starving children. Great. People join thinking this is an awesome service organization. They drop money in the basket and don't look at the books. They send their kids to Sunday School and don't check the curriculum. Before you know it their bank accounts are empty and their children are turning them in as sinners. If you think I'm exaggerating then you don't know history.This sucks, and believe it or not I've been there. Not *there*--not having my bank account drained--but being moved to seek the divine from people who could have indoctrinated me in a bad way. And they almost did, because I got more spiritual baggage from some of the groups I visited in earnest hopes of finding God. When I realized who my gods were, I also realized that I didn't have to do this anymore. I had to find my divinities and understand them to, firstly, fill the yearning, and secondly to know that I didn't need any of that crap anymore. In other words I had to educate myself, the same way that people have to educate themselves about relationships to avoid abusive ones. I'm trying to educate others that divine communion is legit, and that there are ways to fulfill the yearning for the divine without turning to awful institutions. I'm trying to do that by appealing to anthropology, where there exists a metric frakton of data regarding experiences of divinities.
I know you're thinking that this is all easily handled by a little oversight, some checks and balances, but you are proposing a system that is based on not doing that very checking in the first place. You're proposing that if someone says they touched the divine, we don't question them. Once you say that is possible, you set up a situation where some can claim it and others are left wondering if it is true. On the chance it might be true, they follow those who claim it is. I'm sure you would be smart enough to figure out who the hucksters are, but there are too many people out there who are easily taken advantage of.People already wonder if it is true. And people already follow those who claim it is. Fact: It is true that people can touch the divine. I've done it, I have divine experiences every day. I'm not alone in that, and I'm not the only one who is vocal about it. Reality check: A lot of people who have such experiences attach some kind of objective truth value to them, some kind of absoluteness to them, and that is wrong. There's never been anything in our history to suggest that divine experiences are indicative of objective divinities, because divine experiences have been so widely diverse everywhere. The only objective thing that can be said about divine experiences is that people have them at all. I'm not making promises to people to lure them into uncritical magical thinking land. I'm telling it like it is, or at least I'm trying to, but I realize now that I need to make a lot of changes to the website to make some things clearer. First, I have to make it perfectly clear that following people who have found a divinity is a silly idea. Because someone has a divinity in their life doesn't make them worthy of being followed-- it makes them normal, more or less. It makes them like most people who have ever existed on Earth. Second, I have to make it clear that people don't have to follow leaders in order to find divinities. They might have better luck finding them in their favorite childhood stories, but I don't have data on that... Anyway, what I'm proposing isn't checks and balances, but rather an entirely different conceptualization of divinity, one which focuses on experiences-- things we can get data on, and not hypothetical gods which are alien to most people. Because given the extant anthropological data, this whole divinity thing seems rather important to people, and if we could just get past the ridiculous religious institutions that make a mockery of the idea then maybe we could figure out how to optimally approach the divine in the era of science...
Teaching people how to live in the real world is much better....because divinity has actually been a part of our reality for a long, long time.
Simple questions to Theists..Hey! That's me!
a) Why MUST there be a God (a supernatural entity)?There shouldn't be any scientific hypothesis physical supernatural entity, including one who moves the physical world, because we have no reason to test that. Thanks for your thoughtful answers. I do, however, disagree with several points you made. Inasmuch that religion (ritualized belief in a specific supernatural entity) has been the cause for endless wars, hardship and persecution, we have compelling social reasons to test the existence of such a being in reality. This problem is recognized in the "establishment clause"
Nonetheless, people can experience divinities who move the physical world in mysterious ways, and theists often do experience these kinds of things. That's not supernaturalism, that's just anthropology-- talking about people's experiences. The thing that people have to realize is, such experiences and the recognition that those experiences are objective truth--scientifically valid and universal to everyone--can be two separate things.Again, I have to disagree with several points here. Almost everyone I know (including many atheists) have had extraordinary experiences, but IMO that is not anthropology, its psychology, which makes them subjective internal experiences and not objective truth (testable). They are in fact two seperat things and one of them is factually incorrect.
As to the must-ness of it, that's something only individuals can answer. Any speculation on an objective divinity who needs to exist in order for the physical universe to make sense isn't going to be fruitful, and more than that it'll just be a road to further empty speculation, to an intellectual no-person's-land.Ah, but that is why we have science which does in fact investigates this intellectual no-man's land and seeks to discover the true causality of the physical world and why (for some) it is necessary to believe in scientifically flawed scriptures. In the physical sciences we are a few elementary particles away from having "some" answers (Higgs boson is one of them). I admit, a TOE is still beyond our reach, but IMO, it almost certainly is not a supernatural deity. Personally I am a fan of David Bohm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm , and Garrett Lisi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Exceptionally_Simple_Theory_of_Everything
But an individual who needs a God, or gods, or some other kind of divinity to make sense of their own experiences, and to find better direction and purpose in their life--and such people do exist--has good reason to say that a god, or other divinity, must exist in their experience.I agree, but that remains an individual subjective experience and cannot be used to objectively explain or insist on the existence of a Sentient Motivated Creator.
b) Why SHOULD life be the creation of such a supernatural entity?
It shouldn'tWe are in agreement, but that simple answer has many implications; according to mythology the gods themselves have been at war forever, so it depends on which god one believes in how one sees their obligation to serve or find favor from that god.
c) Why should man have a SPECIAL STATUS in the eyes of such an entity?
Well, a lot of people with divinities have reason to understand that they, themselves, matter to their divinities. Again, that's just going off of people's perceptions.I agree, unfortunately a lot of theists are convinced that their divinity gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others. And that is where the problem starts.
d) Why should such an entity REQUIRE worship?
They shouldn't, not by everyone. If an individual benefits from worship then it's up to them to decide to worship, but it's not something that should be pushed on everyone...We are in complete agreement here. Unfortunately, with todays technologies it takes but a few zealots who feel their divinity commands them to wreak havoc on "unbelievers" at unprecedented scale. Therein lies the danger and these are historical facts. http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm
...because divinity has actually been a part of our reality for a long, long time.That is true, but until the concept of a single Supreme Deity, divinity was assigned to natural, but unexplainable events. Thus Thor, Zeus, and about 4000 more gods and demons, depending on the natural environmental geographical ecosystems and their hominid cultures.
Hah, not sure if those questions were actually directed at me, but you did specify "theists"!Oh, I am very happy you responded. IMO, this is a meaningful discussion, it demonstrates that intellectual exchange on this subject is possible by people of good will even with opposing worldviews.
Arda;
Arda
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I only skimmed it. You and I have “been there" as you say. We’ve had similar experiences and arrived at different conclusions. The work that needs to be done for us to see eye to eye can only be done independently I’m afraid. I can’t summarize human history in a way that gets my point across, and neither can you. You can only make assertions like you have here.
When I did the correlation that you speak of, I saw that when religion is in charge, bad things happen. Have you noticed how much conquering is a theme in religious scripture? Even today, when “good" churches do “good" things, they screw it up. Besides making people pay for the charity by listening to a sermon, they spend a ton of money “building community".
I have worked with a few organizations that help feed the starving. If I went to a meeting and said, you know, what we really need is an organ, then we put together a song book and we invite people to come sing once a week. Also, we should pay some old dude to tell us a story, and we should pay for that guy’s house. My proposal would not be seconded.
I don’t care if your theology or your organization looked nothing like this. It’s still a waste of time. Think about it, you’re formulating the “good" things that would result from your divine source. You think you have figured out how to discern the “good" aspects of your divine connections and you can tell when it is just your monkey brain pumping out a bad idea when one pops up. Thing is, it all comes from the same place, our minds, and we are using our rational reasoning capabilities to sort it out. That you reasoned it out that divinity is important is just an indication that reasoning is imperfect and you need to work on it. Try listening to what others have to say instead giving knee jerk reactions.
Oh yeah, love is not just chemicals and neurons. Love is real. Don’t diminish it.
Edit: added “same” before “place”.
Arda,
I have read many of Lausten’s posts and I can assure you he did not mean to be ad hominem when he used the term “monkey brain”. We are of the same species after all.
As to love, IMO, to love God is just chemicals and neurons and a result of “mirror neural” conditioning, but in love between humans there are subtle, but important additional aspects. Love is a spontaneous recognition of compatibility, respect, and commitment, which are neurochemical brain functions of a higher order.
It did not always used to be that way and pre-arranged marriages are still practised in many parts of the world. Of course this has nothing to do with Love.
Lausten, I hope you agree with that analysis.
“Monkey brain” refers to that part of the brain that is still very similar to our primate ancestors. It gives us those fight or flight responses when we should be thinking clearly. Or maybe that’s the “lizard brain”. Anyway, you get the idea.
That was a decent short definition of love. I didn’t want to attempt to define it in detail, I’ll leave that for the poets. My point was that just because we have found some chemical stimuli is involved, that does not reduce it to “just chemicals”.
As still the sunset lights the hills
the valley’s dusk invites my fantasies to fill
I dream of you , my love
As still a breeze yet stirs the leaves
a raven folds his wings to sleep
I dream of you, my love
As still a sound bespeaks of life
silence weaves its way and sighs
I dream of you, my love
As still the sunlight fights to stay
shadows gather 'round to play
I dream of you, my love
I dream of sharing our souls
poems of my love unfold
I’ll dream of you, my love
Until I’m old.
As still the sunset lights the hills the valley's dusk invites my fantasies to fill I dream of you , my love.... ...I dream of our sharing in my soul poems of my love unfold I'll dream of you, my love Until I'm old.What a wonderful compliment to the thread. You know what George Carlin said? More people write poetry than read poetry. :snake: But seriously Write, I'm assuming that's your work. Way to go. :coolsmile:
TY, I am glad you found it pertinent to the discussion…
Was afraid some mod might frown on this liberty…
TY, I am glad you found it pertinent to the discussion... Was afraid some mod might frown on this liberty...I hope not. We need more of that. :-)
Thanks for your thoughtful answers. I do, however, disagree with several points you made. Inasmuch that religion (ritualized belief in a specific supernatural entity) has been the cause for endless wars, hardship and persecution, we have compelling social reasons to test the existence of such a being in reality. This problem is recognized in the "establishment clause"We have compelling reasons to test for such a being, when people claim that such a being is something physically extant--determining the lay of the world--or something objective which sets rigged moral rules indicating what people should legislate. We should dispell those notions.
Consider this statement: "Doug percieved the color violet while Greg perceived the color blue." Is that statement factual or not? I haven't read every book on religious anthropology, but such books often make statements like this: "Members of tribe X understand the storm cloud to be a deity with name Y." So... Still anthropology? Still factual? The hypothetical author doesn't presume the nature of the storm cloud herself, but rather states the perception of the tribe.Nonetheless, people can experience divinities who move the physical world in mysterious ways, and theists often do experience these kinds of things. That's not supernaturalism, that's just anthropology-- talking about people's experiences. The thing that people have to realize is, such experiences and the recognition that those experiences are objective truth--scientifically valid and universal to everyone--can be two separate things.Again, I have to disagree with several points here. Almost everyone I know (including many atheists) have had extraordinary experiences, but IMO that is not anthropology, its psychology, which makes them subjective internal experiences and not objective truth (testable). They are in fact two seperat things and one of them is factually incorrect.
But what does any of that have to do with proving or disproving a physical god? People who want to argue about the nature of a physical god can still just stick the physical god in the ever-shrinking gaps, TOE or not, and then get right back to having intellectual no-person's-land debates. "Maybe God's in a whole other multiverse! Prove me wrong!" XDAs to the must-ness of it, that's something only individuals can answer. Any speculation on an objective divinity who needs to exist in order for the physical universe to make sense isn't going to be fruitful, and more than that it'll just be a road to further empty speculation, to an intellectual no-person's-land.Ah, but that is why we have science which does in fact investigates this intellectual no-man's land and seeks to discover the true causality of the physical world and why (for some) it is necessary to believe in scientifically flawed scriptures. In the physical sciences we are a few elementary particles away from having "some" answers (Higgs boson is one of them). I admit, a TOE is still beyond our reach, but IMO, it almost certainly is not a supernatural deity. Personally I am a fan of David Bohm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm , and Garrett Lisi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Exceptionally_Simple_Theory_of_Everything
That's what I've been saying... At least, I think that's what I've been saying. (Have I not been saying that? o.O)But an individual who needs a God, or gods, or some other kind of divinity to make sense of their own experiences, and to find better direction and purpose in their life--and such people do exist--has good reason to say that a god, or other divinity, must exist in their experience.I agree, but that remains an individual subjective experience and cannot be used to objectively explain or insist on the existence of a Sentient Motivated Creator.
Your statement here seems, to me, to be a non sequiter. What purpose does it serve?b) Why SHOULD life be the creation of such a supernatural entity?It shouldn'tWe are in agreement, but that simple answer has many implications; according to mythology the gods themselves have been at war forever, so it depends on which god one believes in how one sees their obligation to serve or find favor from that god.
I agree, unfortunately a lot of theists are convinced that their divinity gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others. And that is where the problem starts. There exist cultures where this isn't the case. Not that those cultures are problem-free; just pointing out that it's not something universal we're looking at here.c) Why should man have a SPECIAL STATUS in the eyes of such an entity?Well, a lot of people with divinities have reason to understand that they, themselves, matter to their divinities. Again, that's just going off of people's perceptions.
I'm going to say a thing here and if I get burned for saying the thing then so be it: I know. I know that people have done awful things for their gods. I'm all to familiar with the human sacrifices and the blood eagles and the inquisitions and the horrendous tortures inflicted upon members of opposing tribes to honor gods. Believe me, I know a lot about that. It'd be easier for me if all of that changed my own experiences, and my own longings, but it doesn't; kind of like how knowing about the vast history of sexual violence doesn't motivate me to become asexual. The existence of dangerous zealots isn't going to make people who long for the divine just stop longing. They'll still be swept up by the absolutists, or they'll linger in confusion, and all of that might bring about various kinds of denial and agony.We are in complete agreement here. Unfortunately, with todays technologies it takes but a few zealots who feel their divinity commands them to wreak havoc on "unbelievers" at unprecedented scale. Therein lies the danger and these are historical facts. http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htmd) Why should such an entity REQUIRE worship?They shouldn't, not by everyone. If an individual benefits from worship then it's up to them to decide to worship, but it's not something that should be pushed on everyone...
Not just assigned to mysterious phenomena, but also experienced intimately, and I think that's an unfortunate part to leave out. The idea of a single god who reveals something via a prophet every couple millennia goes against people's natural inclinations, at least drawing from everything I've read, and my own experiences, and those of some of my friends....because divinity has actually been a part of our reality for a long, long time.That is true, but until the concept of a single Supreme Deity, divinity was assigned to natural, but unexplainable events. Thus Thor, Zeus, and about 4000 more gods and demons, depending on the natural environmental geographical ecosystems and their hominid cultures.
Hah, that is good to know! and I thank you for the exchange, though I don't know that our worldviews are so opposing. I wonder what you'll think after this reply?Hah, not sure if those questions were actually directed at me, but you did specify "theists"!Oh, I am very happy you responded. IMO, this is a meaningful discussion, it demonstrates that intellectual exchange on this subject is possible by people of good will even with opposing worldviews.
Arda; Arda Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I only skimmed it. You and I have “been there" as you say. We’ve had similar experiences and arrived at different conclusions. The work that needs to be done for us to see eye to eye can only be done independently I’m afraid. I can’t summarize human history in a way that gets my point across, and neither can you. You can only make assertions like you have here.That's fair, and I'm very sorry that you too have been there. It's an awful place to be, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm happy you were able to get out of there.
When I did the correlation that you speak of, I saw that when religion is in charge, bad things happen. Have you noticed how much conquering is a theme in religious scripture? Even today, when “good" churches do “good" things, they screw it up. Besides making people pay for the charity by listening to a sermon, they spend a ton of money “building community".Yeah, religion sucks today. I'm not anti-religious, because I do know people who benefit from their religions, but I definitely lean toward religion-phobic, because every time I see something about religion in the news it's more often than not about something awful. Well, where I get my news is biased, but still... And even the people I know who have benefited from their present religions have often suffered abuse by a former religion. Blah.
I have worked with a few organizations that help feed the starving. If I went to a meeting and said, you know, what we really need is an organ, then we put together a song book and we invite people to come sing once a week. Also, we should pay some old dude to tell us a story, and we should pay for that guy’s house. My proposal would not be seconded.*nods* Utter hypocrites.
I don’t care if your theology or your organization looked nothing like this. It’s still a waste of time. Think about it, you’re formulating the “good" things that would result from your divine source. You think you have figured out how to discern the “good" aspects of your divine connections and you can tell when it is just your monkey brain pumping out a bad idea when one pops up. Thing is, it all comes from the same place, our minds, and we are using our rational reasoning capabilities to sort it out. That you reasoned it out that divinity is important is just an indication that reasoning is imperfect and you need to work on it. Try listening to what others have to say instead giving knee jerk reactions.Um, pot-kettle? I think I've been pretty well reasoned here. I haven't just looked at my own experience. I've done my homework, and I've lucked out a lot in discovering sources that made me realize that my own experiences and divine inclinations don't exist in a vacuum. They're something that people have had for pretty much all of history, and they continue to have them regardless of what people would do to prevent it. Should we just leave people to suffer confusion for their experiences? or should we look at the greater context for those who have or want such experiences and try to help them make sense of their experiences? and maybe find fulfillment instead of confusion? Because if reasonable people don't do that, than unreasonable people will, and we both know how that turns out. I've mentioned that people's perception of gods is theory of mind stuff, basically discerning wills of mysterious entities about which I, for one, maintain an objectively agnostic stance. I don't know all of what they are. I don't know all of the brain chemicals involved, or the forces involved in the brain chemicals, even though I stopped short of quantum physics in college; because we don't have a Theory of Absolutely Everything, and who knows if we ever will. All I know is that I've tried a lot of ways to make sense of the world, and my place in it, and what I'm doing now has helped me to make more sense of things and be a better person than atheism ever did. Beleive it or not I was an atheist for a looooong time. I think that what I'm making here is progress. I'm sorry if what I'm doing reeks of time wasting, but I am what I am, and I know I'm better off for accepting it. I think anything that people can do to grow in ability and understanding is good, and deserves attention. Because isn't that the greatest good? people becoming their true and ideal selves?
Oh yeah, love is not just chemicals and neurons. Love is real. Don’t diminish it.I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but if all of our experiences are just chemicals, then how do we really decide what purely subjective experiences to call real? Who can tell an individual how to decide what to call real, with assurance that the individual will listen? Who should tell them to make that choice? Whether or not my gods are brain chemicals doesn't matter to me. They're still real to me, and I'm not saying anyone else has to perceive or worship them. I will say that, if not for their help I probably would not have gotten out of bed this morning. So, would I really be better off without them? And who is to tell me that...?