# Ayn Hirsi Ali says what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics and Social Issues\ **Created:** [December 4, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578 "2023-12-04T19:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/21 "2023-12-06T15:16:43Z")
Personally I am both anti-woke and anti-conservatism. But this is true that conservatives in the US speak all day long about the woke, as if sexuality (religious morality) was a much more important subject than economics and foreign policy. Well, it is symptomatic, certainly in their eyes it really is. ---
**Author:** ![coffee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/coffee/32/28536_2.png) [@coffee](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/coffee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/22 "2023-12-06T15:34:23Z")
> [@lozenge](#): > > Personally I am both anti-woke and anti-conservatism. It just depends on how you define woke, I suppose. I define (internally) woke as awareness that there are people who are not like me but have every right to be themselves and to be welcomed. Of course, I don’t make definitions for others. ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/23 "2023-12-06T15:35:20Z")
Well, this is called individiualism. Wokism is a collectivist and differentialist ideology. ---
**Author:** ![coffee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/coffee/32/28536_2.png) [@coffee](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/coffee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/24 "2023-12-06T15:54:15Z")
Well, you have your definition and I gave you mine. So, I decided to look it up. From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), “Wokeism definition: promotion of liberal progressive ideology and policy as an expression of sensitivity to systemic injustices and prejudices.” That fits well with me. ❤ ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/25 "2023-12-06T16:22:50Z")
> [@coffee](#): > > systemic The problem might be on the word “systemic”… ---
**Author:** ![coffee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/coffee/32/28536_2.png) [@coffee](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/coffee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:31pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/26 "2023-12-06T16:31:02Z")
> [@lozenge](#): > > The problem might be on the word “systemic”… Not a problem for me. I see systemic prejudice many places. 🙁 ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/27 "2023-12-06T17:26:53Z")
I think Lozenge is pointing to the difference. What I see, is conservatives focusing on individual responsibility while liberals focus on societal factors. I’m extremely liberal by all counts, but I see a problem here. These two views are both wrong if they are taken as some sort of truth. They can both be right if properly integrated. A kid who was born without advantages can take personal responsibility and work their way up to having as much as anyone else. A society that is poorly educated can reflect on why that is and change systems to provide more opportunities. We shouldn’t be leaving people to fend for themselves and people should apply the skills they have to improve themselves. It’s not “woke” to analyze the laws and infrastructure that affect people. To me, that lacks the responsibility that one has for everything that was given to them at birth. ---
**Author:** ![coffee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/coffee/32/28536_2.png) [@coffee](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/coffee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/28 "2023-12-06T18:11:50Z")
@lausten I see your point but I disagree in one important way. Nobody on the left is denying an individual’s responsibility to help themselves. But many on the right deny systemic prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/29 "2023-12-06T20:17:20Z")
> [@coffee](#): > > But many on the right deny systemic prejudice. Some very prominent, both in media and politicians. And it’s reflected in policy. I’m not sure about “nobody on the left”, but good point. I would like to hear more about the individual from left leaders. It could help mitigate the conservative message. ---
**Author:** ![coffee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/coffee/32/28536_2.png) [@coffee](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/coffee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/30 "2023-12-06T20:42:30Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > I’m not sure about “nobody on the left”, but good point. I would like to hear more about the individual from left leaders. It could help mitigate the conservative message. So, to make the claim that some on the left claim that the individual has no responsibility to help themselves, one needs to present an example. As you wrote, there are many examples of the right denying systemic prejudice. What’s worse is that there are many on the right who believe everyone who needs help, needs help because they are lazy. Zero empathy. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/31 "2023-12-06T21:37:56Z")
> [@coffee](#): > > one needs to present an example. I realized about half way through my previous post that I don’t have an example at hand. But I kept charging ahead anyway. Conservatives have both strong rhetoric and policies for their side. Liberals do have policies, like LGBTQ inclusiveness, access to history and modern philosophy for young people, considerations of outcomes when assessing discrimination. If that’s woke, sign me up. ---
**Author:** ![write4u](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/write4u/32/23410_2.png) [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/32 "2023-12-06T22:06:29Z")
> [@coffee](#): > > What’s worse is that there are many on the right who believe everyone who needs help, needs help because they are lazy. Zero empathy. OTOH, they encourage the greedy to produce luxuries that have no social or economic value. Drill baby, drill…! (they deny that oil may run out in ~ 40 years) ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:56am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/33 "2023-12-07T04:56:21Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > We shouldn’t be leaving people to fend for themselves The problem is how we do that in the most efficient way. Communism and socialism are not efficient. ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/34 "2023-12-07T04:57:29Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > It’s not “woke” to analyze the laws and infrastructure that affect people. To me, that lacks the responsibility that one has for everything that was given to them at birth. No it is not. But it is “woke” to do that based on an irrationalist, collectivistic, structuralist and differentialist framework. ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 5:04am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/35 "2023-12-07T05:04:19Z")
> [@coffee](#): > > Nobody on the left is denying an individual’s responsibility to help themselves. > > But many on the right deny systemic prejudice. Because conservatism in a nutshell is to enact upon conclusions decided a priori: America is great (so they don’t see its limitations), men are strong, women are timid, homosexuality doesn’t exist, etc., etc. And so reality must obey to these conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/36 "2023-12-07T13:15:07Z")
> [@lozenge](#): > > Because conservativism in a nutshell is to enact upon conclusions decided a priori Didn’t exist that comment. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/37 "2023-12-07T13:18:38Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > Didn’t exist that comment Sorry, what does this sentence mean? ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/38 "2023-12-07T13:36:36Z")
Sorry, auto correct. I didnt **expect** that comment ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/39 "2023-12-07T13:39:49Z")
> [@lozenge](#): > > Because conservatism in a nutshell is to enact upon conclusions decided a priori: America is great (so they don’t see its limitations), men are strong, women are timid, homosexuality doesn’t exist, etc., etc. > > And so reality must obey to these conclusions. I must add: conservatives wave “traditions” to explain what helped reach these (a priori) conclusions, even though these “traditions” correspond in fact to centuries of intellectual, political and social revolutions or more graduate changes, revolutions and changes being the absolute reverse of their very ideology, which is conservatism. Not mentioning that these revolutions and changes often consist themselves in borrowings from other cultures, borrowing from other cultures which is also quite not really a conservative thing. ---
**Author:** ![lozenge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lozenge/32/23405_2.png) [@lozenge](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lozenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578/40 "2023-12-07T14:11:07Z")
But conservatism is mainly about “opportunistic arguments”, so having their ideology relying on one opportunistic argument (the “traditions” thing, or the “it’s written in the scriptures” thing) should not be astonishing. [Previous page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/ayn-hirsi-ali-says-what/10578.md?page=3)