I see this differently. It’s the change from the Implicate potentials into Explicate patterns, i.e . the creative dynamic of “something emerging from nothing”. This process requires a temporal permission to allow for change to take place in chronological order. The duration of this temporal permission (time) is merely a side-effect of continued duration of existence and/or change in patterns.
Based on the Axiom of “Mutual Exclusivity”, there MUST be separation of events . Events cannot all happens at the same Time and same Place. That is contained in Quantum Mechanics.
That’s why Einstein talked of Reality as consisting of 3 spatial dimension and 1 abstract temporal permission) that measures the duration of spatial use, in the evolving manifest expression of changing patterns, identified by the compound (simultaneous) creation of object “spacetime”.
Temporal permission = sounds like so much semantics to sex up a mundane topic.
Have you never wondered why things are able to change at all?
Worldly affairs are giving us permission?
You have that backward. It is mathematical “permission” for worldy (physical) affairs.
With “permission”, I mean Logical permission, i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 is permitted. 1 + 1 = 3 is not permitted.
Logically change is not permitted without time. Therefore time is created by the act of change. Hence the only direction time can be created is into the as yet timeless future.
Time is giving us permission?
Permission for what?
No, time does not give us permission. There is no time until there is duration of something. Space gives us permission, but change “requires” time which is “granted” in a permittive condition, (things cannot happen at the same time in the same location).
Key Points, a simple version, courtesy of Thoughtco.com
Time is the progression of events from the past into the future.
Time moves only in one direction. It’s possible to move forward in time, but not backward.
Not exactly, time is the duration of progression of events from the present into the future.
There is no present past, there is only a past present.
Scientists believe memory formation is the basis for human perception of time.
Right, without memory the concepts of both space and time would be meaningless.
But that would not affect the creation of duration by the continued existence of space as a physical object.
Time does not, cannot exist independent of duration of physical existence or change.
It is impossible to measure time itself. The action of measuring creates time.
That doesn’t seem rhetorical. Not from you. Of all the thoughts that make it to the top of my list of those worth thinking, I’ve developed habits that keep all the worries and monsters from being considered real. Other people’s thoughts about saviors who will be here soon, I question those. The ringing in my ears is not really a sound being created in my ears, it’s in my brain, somehow.
And here is exactly what I am talking about, all of this is purely concepts within your/our head(s).
Whereas, time is a thing beyond all your wonderful conjectures.
Of course, I’ve wonder about all that jazz, otherwise I won’t be able to write what I do! At least give me that much credit. The thing is I’ve resolved those lofty intellectual/spiritual machinations western ideas remain so shackled to,
and brought it back to the actual reality out there in the physical reality and biology my mind is embedded within.
Believe me the wonder looking in on Earth and me/us/evolution, is way more fascinating and complex than all that out of this world spiritual/intellectual/blowhard jazz I used to find so fascinating.
Not at all. I am the one who is keeping it simple. Time is a measurement of duration of events in a permittive condition.
Time is a result, it is created by the chronology of events. That is why it can only go in one direction to an as yet timeless future…
No mystery, no magic. It’s all part of a dynamical universe.
CDT (Causal Dynamical Triangulation), fractal unfolding of space with time as a bi-product.
Exactly, and then it isn’t called anything. Time only has a human name, because it does not exist as an object. It is an emergent result and property of change, not the cause,
There is no equation for time other than ;
Equation of time
The equation of time describes the discrepancy between two kinds of solar time.
The word equation is used in the medieval sense of “reconcile a difference”
I’ve been looking for a place to jump into this. The notion of time you’ve been stating seems very “Western” to me. It may also be scientifically accurate, but science would include relative time and quantum time and its “problem of time”. Then there are all the ways we experience time, that aren’t measurable.
I don’t have a deep understanding of all this, but to the question “What’s the point”, if indeed time is a result of some other properties, it’s worth exploring.
Over the course of this discussion I’ve refined that initial question: What’s the potential personal intellectual value of the answer when you arrive at it?
How would an ultimate confirmation of one’s notion, change how one deals with living one’s own life and circumstances? Which it has to, otherwise it’s no different from reading whodunnits.
I mean we need to choose what we are present to, there’s only so many hours in a day, and so much attention we have.
We are embedded within a reality where human’s always had a tough time grasping the enormity of the world outside of our immediate sensing, it took a long time to realize that everything observable in space, or within, has motion. That’s profound and it’s as fundamental as it gets.
But the human mind gets bored in a hurry and splitting hairs for fun and profit is what it does.
Recently, I started Tegmark’s much vaunted book, Our Mathematical Universe: My Quest for the Ultimate Nature of Reality.
Right off the bat, Tegmark tells me that the atom is nothing but empty space, tiny nucleus, with itty bitty tiny electrons spinning around with all this empty space in between. This is profound, this is amazing, with this insight as his cornerstone he goes on to build his case.
It is also one of the 20th centuries greatest intellectual follies.
The problem is that the electron is not some point source spinning around a nucleus - that is a particular and useful mathematical description. In reality atoms are nucleus surround by shells of immense energy in motion and to imagine that thing as full of empty space is nothing less than wrong, yet it is still constantly done.
It’s exactly what I mean by getting lost within one’s Mindscape. Set the frame and tell a story.
The elephant in the room is that all these arguments are about each other’s descriptions.
Had Tegmark had any interest in actually conveying what an atom really like - within Physical Reality and opposed to our mathematical formulations - he’d have added, the challenge between our mathematical descriptions is at the core of the particle/wave conundrum of physics.
The map v territory thing.
But each to their own, so fine, it’s worth exploring, since each needs to discover according to their own pace and experiences. I’ve put in my time and am sharing my perspective.
I realize I’ll never convince anyone of anything. But what I do believe is I’m not the only looking for something a bit more sensible and real world, real life. I keep hoping to find them, network and share. Since I think what I’ve put together has the power to help some others investigate, understand, develop their own personal perspective.
You know the Earth Centrism thing that holds a skeptical eye towards our love affair with our own machinations. A different way of appreciating our short time on this rapidly transitioning planet, an element in and of Earth’s Evolution.
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Up to 2:25 It’s wonderful, math as a fantastic tool.
Then suddenly the particles become math itself.
But that’s a category error.
Particles are not numbers, they are mathematical patterns with specific values, which can be expressed in numbers for human consumption. They obey the laws of mathematics in their relational interactions.
Human symbolic mathematics are pretty well compatible with universal mathematics.
That is why we have “Applied Mathematics”.
Understanding the Universal mathematics of “values” and “functions” has served us well. We landed stuff on Mars using Universal mathematics.
AFAIK, there cannot be a physical singularity with zero value. Its very existence suggests a value, not necessarily a numerical value, but a mathematical value.
Such a great question. We got this far, whether you count 3 million years since Lucy, or 200K since the hypothetical Eve, most of our time as a species has been concerned with survival, and has done fine not knowing anything beyond our sense data. So, the answer to your question could be, it doesn’t matter.
But I think that only applies if you are only thinking about survival of yourself and your immediate progeny. But, one of the things that sets us apart is our concern for multiple generations. If there is a possibility of us surviving another million years, as more than just any other mammal, then it does matter.
I don’t think we will survive with imaginary visions of an afterlife as our motivation, or even just an arc of progress, or some satisfaction of passing on our genes. I think it will take a different relationship to our place in the universe, an understanding of this moment in relation to that unknown future.
Well and doesn’t this take us to the root of my attitude towards people and the head games that keep us going. In full fore-knowledge, we have pushed our Earth’s biosphere into a situation where pretty much all complex life is threatened with extinction in the next century, seriously and for real. How much actually survives in the long run depends on how long humans extraordinarily complex, interconnected, interdependent, economic machine continues saturating our atmosphere with insulation medium - which is guaranteed to continue warming our climate system with all it’s known and unknown consequences.
When you do look at the trends within our biosphere and all the impacts Anthropogenic Global Warming (not to mention general gluttonous polluting and destroying) inflicted over the past half century and play it that forward another fifty years - it becomes inconceivable that anything remotely resembling the globe trotting society we have come to take so for granted, will be around.
That is exactly what pisses me off about our insistence on metaphysical bellybutton gazing, all the while ignoring the physical reality that dictates our wellbeing. There is something grotesquely sick about that, which I simply can’t wrap my head around.
Where the heck have I ever advocated for something like that!?!
I recognize myself as being an element in the flow of Evolution. I have my moment to dance across Earth’s stage, then I am gone, though the ripple of my passage will outlive me. I’VE MADE NO CLAIM TO MORE OR LESS THAN THAT.
