# A black Cleopatra **URL:** \ **Category:** Entertainment and Pop Culture\ **Created:** [June 2, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279 "2023-06-02T21:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/21 "2023-06-22T02:36:50Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > it’s very easy to make sense of Cleopatra’s race. > > There are a few paragraphs discussing this. How can the people studying it disagree, but it’s easy for you? > > "Sources suggest that if she was not Macedonian, she was probably Egyptian. So by the time of Cleopatra’s grandparents, there may have been an Egyptian element.” > > The thrust of it though, is “race” is completely non-scientific. You can’t “make sense” of something that doesn’t exist. Reread the rest of that section: > The Ptolemy dynasty descended from Greek Macedonian roots and ruled ancient Egypt during its Hellenistic era, with marriages typically occurring within the family. The dynasty was established when Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in 323 B.C. > The part of [Cleopatra’s bloodline](https://www.thoughtco.com/was-cleopatra-black-biography-3528680) that remains a mystery is that of her mother and paternal grandmother. However, many experts say there is no evidence to suggest either woman was Black. > As Duane W. Roller, a professor emeritus of Classics at Ohio State University, wrote for the Oxford University Press [blog](https://blog.oup.com/2010/12/cleopatra-2/) in 2010, “Assuming, however, that Cleopatra’s grandmother was not from the traditional Macedonian Greek stem, the question arises as to just what she was. Again, all evidence points to her being Greek. There is no evidence at all that she was Black. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 10:05am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/22 "2023-06-22T10:05:13Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Again, **all** evidence points to her being Greek. There is **no** evidence at all that she was Black. Thanks. I often ponder this question of two people, reading exactly the same things and coming to opposite conclusions. A lot of it has to do with the doing of science and knowing what the word “probability” means. So I added bold to two of your words above. Compare them to the quotes you pulled, the ones that you say prove your point. “part of”.. “bloodline that remains a **mystery** ” “ **many** experts say” “the question arises” ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/23 "2023-06-23T03:11:49Z")
You can nitpick words without context all you want. There is simply no evidence she was Black. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/24 "2023-06-23T04:41:15Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > This is completely bizarre. You aren’t making sense. No, I’m making sense. You just don’t want to hear it. > [@thatoneguy](#): > > Who cares if they’re not “Irish White”? More than 1 skin tone is found among Europeans. You need to get out of your small town bubble. As I said, you speak of race. I talk about complexions. There is only one race, the human race, but you don’t want to hear it because you get a thrill out of thinking others are lower than you if they aren’t white. Cleopatra was not white. She was olive complected. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2023, 11:46am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/25 "2023-06-23T11:46:15Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > simply no evidence Without any reference to Cleopatra, what do these words of your mean? That’s not nit picking, that’s defining. I don’t hear any room for “maybe” or “possibly” in your language. For me, it’s easier to use percentages, but not everyone likes that. If the possibility is 99.9%, then, ok, “no evidence” means about the same thing. But, I don’t think that’s where we are. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/26 "2023-06-26T02:29:28Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > This is completely bizarre. You aren’t making sense. > > No, I’m making sense. You just don’t want to hear it. > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > Who cares if they’re not “Irish White”? More than 1 skin tone is found among Europeans. You need to get out of your small town bubble. > > As I said, you speak of race. I talk about complexions. There is only one race, the human race, but you don’t want to hear it because you get a thrill out of thinking others are lower than you if they aren’t white. Cleopatra was not white. She was olive complected. White means European decent, and an olive tone is common among Europeans. Nobody agrees with your mental gymnastics. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/27 "2023-06-26T02:33:42Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > simply no evidence > > Without any reference to Cleopatra, what do these words of your mean? That’s not nit picking, that’s defining. I don’t hear any room for “maybe” or “possibly” in your language. For me, it’s easier to use percentages, but not everyone likes that. > > If the possibility is 99.9%, then, ok, “no evidence” means about the same thing. But, I don’t think that’s where we are. What part do you not get? Historians say there is no evidence she was Black. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/28 "2023-06-26T03:52:00Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Historians say there is no evidence But they don’t say that. Those are not the words they use. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/29 "2023-06-26T13:41:59Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > Nobody agrees with your mental gymnastics. 1. Nobody is a big word 2. It’s not mental gymnastics But go ahead and believe what you want. The truth is, when you use words such as “nobody”, “all”, etc you end up falsifying your own statement. Such words make such a statement untrue. Do you call Jews “white”? Some are “white” and consider themselves “white”, yet there are some like my mother who insist they are not. Words, such as “some”, make such statements true, but to say everyone considers Jews something other than white is not true. You should have learned this long ago, but then again, you like to clump people in groups and use words such as “all”, “none”, “everyone”, etc. Life doesn’t work the way you’ve constructed it. > [@thatoneguy](#): > > White means European decent, and an olive tone is common among Europeans. It’s also a complexion seen among Egyptians too. Again, your construct of “all” and “none” isn’t reality. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/30 "2023-06-26T14:59:37Z")
> [@mriana](#): > > The truth is, when you use words such as “nobody”, “all”, etc you end up falsifying your own statement. Do you remember when you wanted something, as a kid, and you said, “well everybody is doing it”, and our parents said, “Well if everybody was jumping off the bridge, would you?” Our generation should teach the next generation of parents to say, “Well, you just said something that is easily falsifiable, so no. I only need to find one person who isn’t doing it, here let me text them now, if they say ‘no’, then that’s ‘no’ from me. And oh, by the way, what you’re doing is something commonly used by demagogues and propagandists, you should read Mark Antony’s speech at Ceasar’s funeral in Shakespeare. Not to mention just watch a dumb commercial of some product you don’t want and see how obvious it use they are using this tactic and it’s not working. I’m making a big deal out of this trivial request because I don’t want you to end up like the [woman with the piano key scarf getting maced at the Capitol because everybody else was storming it](https://www.tmz.com/2021/01/06/woman-maced-pepper-spray-storm-us-capitol-revolution/), so, she fallaciously followed.” ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/31 "2023-06-26T22:38:49Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > Do you remember when you wanted something, as a kid, and you said, “well everybody is doing it”, and our parents said, “Well if everybody was jumping off the bridge, would you?” I do and I’d love to get people to prove him wrong. Oh wait, we already have the people and he still refuses to believe there are people who don’t agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![vitolear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vitolear](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/vitolear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:51am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/32 "2023-06-27T11:51:32Z")
Here’s the main problem for history buffs. The historical pictures, known lineage, and consensus image of Cleopatra are that of Greek/Mediterranean appearance. The actress is African American, which is not even close. The superficial appearance is not what matters. What matters is that the producer is signaling that what you are about to see is modern virtue-signaling rather than historical reproduction. Same problem with last year’s Tolkien farce. They take the Anglo-Saxon creation myth and use African Americans for immortal (non-evolving) elves. Maybe you’ll like the show, maybe the acting is good, but it’s not Tolkien. It’s great in Bridgerton because you know it’s a farce. But if they cast a Chinese guy for the lead role in _Roots_ then you know the plot is probably not going to be serious about the history. ---
**Author:** ![write4u](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/write4u/32/23410_2.png) [@write4u](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/write4u)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/33 "2023-06-27T16:49:04Z")
> [quote=“vitolear, post:32, topic:10279, full:true”] > The superficial appearance is not what matters. What matters is that the producer is signaling that what you are about to see is modern virtue-signaling rather than historical reproduction. > But if they cast a Chinese guy for the lead role in _Roots_ then you know the plot is probably not going to be serious about the history. When you are trying to recreate a 3000-year-old famous person there is never much recent history of that person available. But using “local” demographics is the preferred setting for historical accounts. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 5:54pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/34 "2023-06-27T17:54:53Z")
> [@vitolear](#): > > that what you are about to see is modern virtue-signaling rather than historical reproduction. If you want history, read a book. I don’t want to live in a world where non white actors can only appear in roles that fit a non white history. ---
**Author:** ![vitolear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vitolear](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/vitolear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 6:51pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/35 "2023-06-27T18:51:52Z")
I want history in books _and_ movies. I want to see a movie about Napoleon played by a French-looking guy, and I want to see a movie about Genghis Khan played by a Mongol-looking guy. If you want to see a movie about Fredrick Douglas starring Danny DeVito, or a movie about Einstein starring Morgan Freeman, then you’re into virtue-signaling rather than good history or good movies. The only things this actress has in common with Cleopatra are (1) personal wealth and (2) violent husbands. This explains all the 1-star ratings. ---
**Author:** ![morgankane01](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/morgankane01/32/28536_2.png) [@morgankane01](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/morgankane01)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/36 "2023-06-27T22:18:12Z")
> [@vitolear](#): > > I want history in books _and_ movies. I want to see a movie about Napoleon played by a French-looking guy, and I want to see a movie about Genghis Khan played by a Mongol-looking guy. If you want to see a movie about Fredrick Douglas starring Danny DeVito, or a movie about Einstein starring Morgan Freeman, then you’re into virtue-signaling rather than good history or good movies. What is true is that TV companies could make movies and series about important black characters frome the past. Many have lived and had historical influences. In fact, it would be much more educative that a black Cleopatra. Why not something about the black Seminoles? Or a western serie about a black federal marshal of the 1870 ? [[Bass Reeves - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_Reeves)] [[The African American Women of the Wild West — Signature Theatre](https://www.sigtheatre.org/events/201920/gp/the-african-american-women-of-the-wild-west)] The matter of fabricating false documentaries is that too many people mix them with truth. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/37 "2023-06-28T01:50:24Z")
> [@vitolear](#): > > I want history in books _and_ movies. I want to see a movie about Napoleon played by a French-looking guy, and I want to see a movie about Genghis Khan played by a Mongol-looking guy. If you want to see a movie about Fredrick Douglas starring Danny DeVito, or a movie about Einstein starring Morgan Freeman, then you’re into virtue-signaling rather than good history or good movies. > > The only things this actress has in common with Cleopatra are (1) personal wealth and (2) violent husbands. This explains all the 1-star ratings. Well said. Thanks for being a voice of sanity. ---
**Author:** ![mriana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/mriana/32/18174_2.png) [@mriana](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/mriana)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 1:56am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/38 "2023-06-28T01:56:25Z")
> [@vitolear](#): > > I want history in books _and_ movies. I want to see a movie about Napoleon ![]() played by a French-looking guy, and I want to see a movie about Genghis Khan played by a Mongol-looking guy. If you want to see a movie about Fredrick Douglas starring Danny DeVito, or a movie about Einstein starring Morgan Freeman, then you’re into virtue-signaling rather than good history or good movies. OK then give people a Jesus that looks like an Israeli or an Egyptian or an Arab or some dark complected man to play the character. Stop giving us white Jesuses, because if he ever lived, he wasn’t white. ---
**Author:** ![thatoneguy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/thatoneguy/32/28536_2.png) [@thatoneguy](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/thatoneguy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/39 "2023-06-28T02:07:24Z")
> [@lausten](#): > > > [@thatoneguy](#): > > > > Historians say there is no evidence > > But they don’t say that. Those are not the words they use. You must like being wrong. From the link: > However, many experts say there is no evidence to suggest either woman was Black. ---
**Author:** ![lausten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.centerforinquiry.org/lausten/32/23705_2.png) [@lausten](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/u/lausten)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 4:05am UTC](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279/40 "2023-06-28T04:05:02Z")
> [@thatoneguy](#): > > You must like being wrong I like understanding words. If there is a strong historical consensus, then find that article. If the articles say “many”, then it’s many. [Previous page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.centerforinquiry.org/t/a-black-cleopatra/10279.md?page=3)